DOES JESUS HAVE A...DUAL NATURE?...

[Dhulqarnain]

DHULQARNAIN'S response to BELIEVER---Look at how silly and contradictory your position is. You say that Jesus was a man ("anthropos" Gk.--fully human), and I agree, and then you turn around and say he is G-d ("theos" Gk.-G-d), yet, you still haven't produced for me as I requested earlier, the scriptural term for..."dual nature". The bible also speaks of a third "nature" peumatikos or SPIRIT. Jesus, is defined in the Bible as---anthropos-fully human and that is it. He is never defined as theos. Perhaps, you can find me the term for dual nature though, thanks and good luck! :D

DARKYL---***I don't understand why it's important to find the "exact term" indicating the dual nature when the bible is pretty clear in the concepts. Having read the Bible I find it pretty clear that Jesus IS the Lord. Also, the verse quoted by believer seem to be explicative, as Jesus answers "Yes". And just to clear that I'm not defending anything in a biased way: I'm not a Christian.***

The entire Christian theology hinges on the notion that Jesus has a "dual nature". Now, in order to support such a theology, the bible, which is the authority for Christian doctrine, must support such a notion. If Jesus has a nature, that is unlike any other, then the bible, somewhere, must have the term which defines this unique nature called--"dual nature" or, if you will, "theoanthropos" god-man. The bible says...PROVE ALL THINGS and that means--ALL! If this term cannot be produced, then what has been ascribed to Jesus, dual nature, is no more than what it is anyway---an INVENTION of men and not a truth from G-d Almighty.

I'm still waiting for Believer, to produce the Greek, Latin, Syriac, or Hebrew term for dual nature.

Do you think I will have to wait long? LOL

[mule]

Dhulqarnain,
If I answer you then does Ronnie get mad at me? I wish you had put this down in the Interfaith Dialogue. I do not feel like breaking the rules. I hope Ronnie will just move this. If Islam is right then it will come out on top. When things are deleted it makes it seem as if the religion is hiding something.

By my faith it is my obligation to answer you. Do you want verses?
The Bible says that it is good to compare scripture with scripture.

In Christianity the versions in English are just as authoritative as the Greek. People look into the original language to get a better understanding maybe. But really the English is just as good. It is God's job to preserve the bible.

We don't have originals. What we have is over 5,000 copies or partial copies. Some of the partials dating very close to when Jesus walked the earth. We also have prophecy. We have the promises of God that are dated before Jesus to verify who Jesus was.
So all in all the Bible is a sound testimony of God and what he said he was going to do.

So no matter what language I quote you you should accept it.

IF you need the verses............

mule

[Dhulqarnain]

MULE

I was not aware of the Interfaith rule, as I always post under General in all the forums I participate in.

All I want is the term which means "dual nature" in your Greek manuscripts. One "word" will be sufficient, I don't know why you need to post verses, the term is there or it isn't. I can find theos, for G-d; anthropos, for fully human, and pneumatikos, for spirit, but nothing for "dual nature".

[mule]

Dhulqarnain,

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I don't know how to do bold. I don't know any greek either. You will have to ask a Greek. It is taught in the bible. I gave you the verse. It is perfectly fine to compare scripture to scripture to find a teaching.

I was just trying to help you. You should always ask for verses, because without the verse you may be just getting an opinion and not really what the bible veiw is.

mule

[Believer]

Peace,

Dhul, don't be an infidel.
Is Muhammed an incarnate of Satan?
Of course he's not!
Is Jesus dualistic?
Of course He is!
All Christians believe Jesus is man AND God the Son.
We believe in the Trinity though the word "trinity" isn't mentioned in the Bible.

Why don't you explain to me that verse from Samuel!
You can't say anything about that verse, can you?
Your rather pathetic, I must say.

Bledsings

[Darkyl]

I'm sorry Darkyl, but that is not good enogh. Your book says..PROVE ALL THINGS..., hence, for you to claim that Jesus has a dual nature, then you obligated to produce the term from your book which MEANS "dual nature" and prove your assertion/claim. Certainly christians have invented this elaborate theory around his having a dual nature, however, they cannot prove this, because their own book contains NO SUCH TERM for what the hold as truth/doctrine, do you see?

Peace Dhulqarnain,

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in your reasoning.
Or better I don't agree that one is "obligated" to produce evidence of the presence of a specific word to prove a concept.
The book may not contain that specific term BUT explains it through other concept and words.
Basically what your saying is that if an audio Cd, doesn't contain the word "music" phisically printed or singed by the author, that's a proof that the CD doesn't contain music.

Or if I tell you that a computer operating system can manage different applications simultaneously I'm obviously describing a "multitasking OS" without ever saying the word "multitasking".

Peace

P.s.: The Bible is not "my book" as I'm not even a christian.




Edited by - Darkyl on 09/16/2003 15:13:36

[Dhulqarnain]

I'm sorry Darkyl, but that is not good enogh. Your book says..PROVE ALL THINGS..., hence, for you to claim that Jesus has a dual nature, then you obligated to produce the term from your book which MEANS "dual nature" and prove your assertion/claim. Certainly christians have invented this elaborate theory around his having a dual nature, however, they cannot prove this, because their own book contains NO SUCH TERM for what the hold as truth/doctrine, do you see?
I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in your reasoning.

My logic is impeccable and you see it.


Or better I don't agree that one is "obligated" to produce evidence of the presence of a specific word to prove a concept.

Then you are in defiance of 1Thess.5:21...PROVE ALL THINGS...

Asserting what we cannot prove is called...conjecture.


The book may not contain that specific term BUT explains it through other concept and words.

One could walk into court with a case like this. The bible speaks of and defines three EXACT/distinct natures. If it doesn't contain the EXACT word in regard to dual "nature", as it does with the other three natures, then it cannot be proven that Jesus had a dual nature, it's that simple, it remains conjecture.

[Darkyl]

Or better I don't agree that one is "obligated" to produce evidence of the presence of a specific word to prove a concept.
Then you are in defiance of 1Thess.5:21...PROVE ALL THINGS...

I didn't say I can't prove it. Did you read my post?
I'm simply saying that, in order to prove it, there's no need to find the exact term.

The Bible DOES contain that concept even without containing the term.

I repeat the example above.

"Windows Xp is an operating system that allows different applications to run simultaneously on a computer"

Did I mention the word multitasking? No.
Did I mean it? Did I describe a multitasking OS? Yes.



Edited by - Darkyl on 09/17/2003 02:55:27

[Dhulqarnain]

I didn't say I can't prove it. Did you read my post? I'm simply saying that, in order to prove it, there's no need to find the exact term.

How can you prove something, when the basis of your arguement, the bible, cannot substantiate your arguement?! The bible says...PROVE ALL THINGS. This verse is to ensure that whatever someone says it claims, they must go to it and prove. To prove dual nature, one must find the term which defines it, that is the command of 1THESS.5:21

Your arguement absolutely nonsensical and that is why Christianity is absurd, it is nothing but conjectures.

Did you consider what I told you?, that being, what cannot be proven is CONJECTURE. Your analogy is meaningless in this case, because we are talking about what the bible demands as proof and not computers.


The Bible DOES contain that concept even without containing the term.

No term, no valid concept...PROVE ALL THINGS...this is what the bible demands of those who wish to wield it. It is a grievous sin to make things up about God and not go to His scriptures, as He demands/commands, and PROVE it...that is the bottomline. Without this safeguard, anyone could just make up anything they wished and then attribute it to God, which, btw, is EXACTLY what Christianity has done.

[Believer]

Peace Dhulqarnain,

Okay, Dhul, you prove to me clearly that the Prophets confirm Muhammed and the Quran---and NOT the Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, the Messiah, the Saviour, the one from the House of David, the One to be born in Bethlehem, the King that shall enter Jerusalem on a colt.

What? Are you speachless?

Blessings

[Dhulqarnain]

Believer

I proved this to you in my posts regarding Deut.18:18 and Song of Solomon 5:16.

When you could not go to your book and find the term which means "dual nature", you destroyed your credibility.

[mule]

Dhulqarnain,

The term dual nature is probably not there. Non the less the bible teaches this. If a person were to say that Jesus had only one nature they would be in error and deemed a heretic.

Jesus is both man and God. I have verses of both to back my veiw up.

I will give you this verse again:

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.

You don't have a thing.

MULE

[Darkyl]

No term, no valid concept...PROVE ALL THINGS...this is what the bible demands of those who wish to wield it. It is a grievous sin to make things up about God and not go to His scriptures, as He demands/commands, and PROVE it...that is the bottomline. Without this safeguard, anyone could just make up anything they wished and then attribute it to God, which, btw, is EXACTLY what Christianity has done.


Does Allah ever mention the word "poligamy" in the Quran? No.
Does Allah talk about poligamy? Yes.

You're stating that you cannot talk/explaing/command a concept without naming the term that defines it.
Well, that's wrong.
Usually, the best explanations of concepts don't use the terms defining them at all.

[/quote]



Edited by - Darkyl on 09/17/2003 10:52:44

[Dhulqarnain]

***The term dual nature is probably not there.***

It is not there, by what authority then, o Christians have the right to define the nature of God? This not the realm of man.

***Non the less the bible teaches this. If a person were to say that Jesus had only one nature they would be in error and deemed a heretic.***

Yes, the bible writers due to mistranslations both inadvertant and advertant and interpolations, have invented a notion that neither God or Jesus or any of the Apostles say about them.

***Jesus is both man and God. I have verses of both to back my veiw up. I will give you this verse again:1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH. You don't have a thing.***

This is some writer making this claim, so what?, anyone can make any claim they wish, but it is another thing to prove it. Show me the verse where God, Jesus OR Paul, DEFINES the nature of GOD/Jesus, as one of "dual nature". The bible clearly defines God as theos, The Holy Ghost as pneuma, and Jesus as anthropos, now, show me term where GOD defines Himself as having a "dual nature"

On, to the contrary, it YOU who have nothing....except..conjecture.

[Dhulqarnain]

DHULQARNAIN---No term, no valid concept...PROVE ALL THINGS...this is what the bible demands of those who wish to wield it. It is a grievous sin to make things up about God and not go to His scriptures, as He demands/commands, and PROVE it...that is the bottomline. Without this safeguard, anyone could just make up anything they wished and then attribute it to God, which, btw, is EXACTLY what Christianity has done.

***Does Allah ever mention the word "poligamy" in the Quran? No.
Does Allah talk about poligamy? Yes. You're stating that you cannot talk/explaing/command a concept without naming the term that defines it. Well, that's wrong. Usually, the best explanations of concepts don't use the terms defining them at all.***

What you fail to grasp, as well as Mule and other Christians is this. God, did not give man the RIGHT to define HIM, no right! God, gave man the RIGHT TO DEFINE THE CREATION, but not Him, thus, for you or anyone else to come along and DEFINE HIS nature as...dual nature, when He did not, then you must produce the verse(s) where God, Almighty, DEFINES Himself as such, IN THE FIRST PERSON, otherwise, it is nothing more than heresay and conjecture.

For you to have a valid claim, you must produce the term in the original Greek writings where God defines Himself as anthrotheos--man and God or theoanthropos--God and man, take your pick.

In regard to the polygamy issue, God, Himself, in the first person, is defining a form of marriage, this is His right and doesn't need to give us a term for it, He can do as He pleases, however, as I said above when it comes to defining His nature, ONLY He has that RIGHT...not man, and He does it in the first person.

And that my friend...is the bottomline.

[Darkyl]

Peace Dhulqarnain,

again my point is that I'm NOT defining God on my own.
I'm defining God basing my reasoning on His words and actions.
He describes a dual nature, even without using the exact term, and I'm merely an observer that aknowledge that fact.

Jesus reply "Yes, you said it" is explicative.

[Dhulqarnain]

No, Darkyl, you're extrapolating. God, clearly DEFINES His nature as ONE. "Here O Israel, you God is ONE". This was what God commanded Moses to say about His nature. God, has never defined Himself as having a dual nature. Show me the verse where God says "Here O Christians, you God is of Dual Nature". Description and definition are not synonomous terms.

The entire Christian theology is based on conjecture, as they have no scriptural proof from God authorizing any dual nature definition of Him. You have no arguement, Darkyl, sorry.

***Jesus reply "Yes, you said it" is explicative.***

One, Jesus is not God, two, what did he say "yes" to, please post the verse, thanks.

[Darkyl]

Ok, you're right. Mine is an extrapolation/intepretation.

Just like when you talked about:

O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your
mother a woman unchaste! (Sura 19:27-28)

and saying that Allah is not stating that Mary is the sister of Aaron but He's using the term "sister" in a figurative way.
Isn't that an interpretation? Yes, it is.

Yet, you think your interpretation is correct (and I'm not saying it's not) and you base your belief that the Quran is error free on that interpretation.
You use the same reasoning to explain other apparent contraddictions in the Quran, and that's perfectly reasonable for me.

So, it's perfectly reasonable for me to interpret several verses of the Bible and state that Jesus is both God and man, like

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

or the combination of these two verses:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[Believer]

Peace all,

"Here O Israel, you God is ONE".
Yes, no other god is besides You, oh LORD.
Allah isn't one of three. The Quran is clearly wrong when it states this. Say, Dhulqarnain, remember that verse from Samuael I quoted, you never did exoplain that to me.

And Dhul,
"I proved this to you in my posts regarding Deut.18:18 and Song of Solomon 5:16."
I proved that Deut 18:18 clearly referring to Christ. Look in the interfaith forum under "...a prophet like me..."
And Song of Solomon 15:6 is nothing close to anything near Muhammed.
You clearly lack anything you can really distinctly use to prove Muhammed as final messenger.
And you never disproved the duality, either.

Blessings

[Dhulqarnain]

***Ok, you're right. Mine is an extrapolation/intepretation. Just like when you talked about: and saying that Allah is not stating that Mary is the sister of Aaron but He's using the term "sister" in a figurative way. Isn't that an interpretation? Yes, it is. Yet, you think your interpretation is correct (and I'm not saying it's not) and you base your belief that the Quran is error free on that interpretation. You use the same reasoning to explain other apparent contraddictions in the Quran, and that's perfectly reasonable for me.
So, it's perfectly reasonable for me to interpret several verses of the Bible and state that Jesus is both God and man***

Main Entry: EXTRAPOLATE

1 : to infer (values of a variable in an unobserved interval) from values within an already observed interval
2 a : to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area b : to predict by projecting past experience or known data.

As you can see, to extrapolate, is to go beyond what is KNOWN. We KNOW, for example that, in the bible, God has DEFINED Himself as--ONE and, that same bible, mentions three natures (theos, anthropos, and pnuematikos) and not "four" natures, i.e. a "dual" nature. These are KNOWN quantities. In order for you to have case, you must go to the original Greek writings and find the term for "dual nature"/a fourth nature, then, you would be in possession of the KNOWN, however, if you cannot do this, then you are simply engaging in extrapolation, that is, going beyond what is KNOWN, in a word---conjecturing.

PROVE ALL THINGS...





Edited by - Dhulqarnain on 09/18/2003 05:13:20

[Darkyl]

Peace Dhulqarnain,

[...] if you cannot do this, then you are simply engaging in extrapolation, that is, going beyond what is KNOWN, in a word---conjecturing.

Again, I agree with you.
Conjecturing and interpreting are essential practices in religions, in my opinion.

Aren't you interpreting that the word "sister" referred to Mary is figurative and conjecturing that He's referring to the tribal connections of Mary with Aaron?
(I'm not saying it's a wrong conjecture anyway).

Peace.

[Dhulqarnain]

[...] if you cannot do this, then you are simply engaging in extrapolation, that is, going beyond what is KNOWN, in a word---conjecturing.

***Again, I agree with you. Conjecturing and interpreting are essential practices in religions, in my opinion. Aren't you interpreting that the word "sister" referred to Mary is figurative and conjecturing that He's referring to the tribal connections of Mary with Aaron? (I'm not saying it's a wrong conjecture anyway).***

When one interprets something correctly then he/she is not conjecturing. Scripture is both figurative and literal, for example, Jesus, often spoke in parables and although they were figurative, they have a definite/objective meaning for those who can correctly decipher/interpret their symbols. Sister, in the scriptures, can be both literal and figurative and to know the difference is to know the context in which the word is being used. Clearly, Maryam, couldn't literally be the sister of Aaron, so, by using our common sense/intellect, we determine then it must be figurative.