". . . a prophet like me . . ."

[ibnleroy]

Assalamu alaykum all,

Believer, you mentioned in an earlier post that there is nothing in the Bible that refers to Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam), so I decided to post a few passages that you might find interesting, inshallah:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you A PROPHET LIKE ME from among your own BROTHERS. You must listen to him" (Deut. 18: 15). This is Musa, bka Moses (alayhi salam), addressing his people collectively.

"I will raise up for them A PROPHET LIKE YOU from among their BROTHERS; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him" (Deut. 18: 18). This is Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) speaking to Musa (alayhi salam).

Now, three important points must be considered:
1) THE PROPHET SPOKEN OF IN THESE VERSES MUST BE LIKE MUSA (alayhi salam). The parallels between Musa and Muhammad (peace be upon them) are irrefutable: both were called to prophethood from quiet family lives, both fled a repressive power structure, both became military leaders, both became political leaders, both recieved legislative revelations from Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). When faced w/ punishing two adulterers (before the revelation of Surah 24: 2), Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam) proclaimed, "I give my judgment according to what is in the Tawrah (Torah)," (Abu Dawud, 37: 26) an affirmation of his prophetic bond with Musa (alayhi salam).

2) THE PROPHET MUST BE FROM THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES/ JEWS. Who are the brothers of the Jews? The Arabs, b/c they share the same patriarch, Ibrahim (Abraham, alayhi salam). It is an indisputable fact that Jews and Arabs are brothers both genetically (through the blood of Ibrahim, alayhi salam) and ethnolinguistically (both are defined as Semitic).

3) ALLAH (SUBHANA WA TA'ALA) WILL PUT HIS WORDS IN THIS PROPHET'S MOUTH. This is exactly what Muhammad (alayhi salat wa salam) claimed the Qur'an was: the literal words of Allah that he was commissioned to recite to the people, Jews and Arabs alike.

Now, to one of my favorites:

"AN ORACLE CONCERNING ARABIA: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia, bring water for the thirsty; you who live in Tema, BRING FOOD FOR THE FUGITIVES. THEY FLEE FROM THE SWORD, FROM THE DRAWN SWORD, FROM THE BENT BOW AND FROM THE HEAT OF BATTLE. This is what the Lord says to me (Isaiah): 'Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar (Arabia) will come to an end. The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.' The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken" (Isaiah 21: 13-17). It doesn't take much to deduce who fulfilled this prophecy. Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam) and the fledging Muslim community fled from Mecca to Yathrib in an attempt to escape the violence imposed upon them. And indeed, towards the end of the Prophet's (sallahu alayhi wa salam) mission, "the pomp (i.e. the tribal and economic power structures) of Kedar" came to an end.

So there you have it; a few references to Muhammad (alayhi salat wa salam) in the Bible; unless, of course, you can provide me with evidence that Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam) was NOT like Musa (alayhi salam), was NOT from amongst the brothers of the Jewish people, did NOT claim to have Allah's words put in his mouth, did NOT flee from intense and violent opposition, and did NOT bring about the end of "the pomp of Kedar."

Please reflect on this post. Peace.

[Believer]

Hello helper,
I was waiting for this to come up.
These prophecies could easily point to Christ.

"The Lord your God will raise up for you A PROPHET LIKE ME from among your own BROTHERS. You must listen to him" (Deut. 18: 15).

"A PROPHET LIKE ME"- A prophet whose like God himself
Jesus Christ!

"among your own BROTHERS"- Jesus is a brother to the Israelites.
Muhammed is a COUSIN to the Israelites.

"I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him"- Jesus is the living Word of God.
The Father told him what to say to us.
Jesus did everything the Father commanded him to do.

"THE PROPHET SPOKEN OF IN THESE VERSES MUST BE LIKE MUSA"
Yes, you are TOTALLY right! Jesus and Moses have ALOT in common.

Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Both chemically controlled water (Moses turned water to blood Jesus turned water into wine).
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.
They both died on a hill.
Jesus fed thousands of people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread (John 6:10-2) and Moses fed the Isrealites with manna (John 6:31).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost
stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of
bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
Moses gave the Ten Commandments, Jesus gave the two Great Commandments.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings

Is this sufficient enough for you?

...
That last verse you stated was interesting.
But I fail to see the part in this where the Great Prophet of God is mentioned. You still cannot justify Muhammed's prophethood based on that.
Besides, I counted 7 more of these oracles in Isaiah, so it's nothing too special of a prediction.

Peace to you,

[ibnleroy]

Believer,

"A prophet like me," was spoken by Musa (alayhi salam), not Allah. And in the next verse I cited, Allah says to Musa (alayhi salam), "a prophet like you." So saying Isa (alayhi salam) was "like God" is not a fulfillment of this prophecy.

If you and I had shared the same father, we would be siblings, not cousins. Jews and Arabs are the descendants of two sons (that would make them brothers) of Ibrahim (alayhi salam), Isma'il and Ya'qub (peace be upon them). How these two could be considered cousins is beyond my understanding. Anyway, Isa (alayhi salam) was a Jew, not from amongst the brothers of the Jews.

You brought up some good parallels between Musa and Isa (peace be upon them), but many don't do anything for your argument b/c they can just as easily go on my list:
Both had a unique relationship w/ God
Both had to flee for their lives (this was stated previously)
Both called to bring their people out of "bondage"
Both disliked the established authorities
Both recieved commandments and gave commandments from God
Both taught others how to pray
Both lived a life of hardship
Both of their followers strayed from their teachings

Out of a list of twenty-one parallels, nine of them are applicable to my argument as well. That's nearly half. Not to mention some of your parallels are trivial, to say the least. You might as well had said, "both of them were men, both grew beards, both wore sandals, both lived in the Middle East . . ." lol

The whole point in posting the passage from Isaiah was to show you that Muhammad (alayhi salat wa salam) is in the Bible, not to proove that he was a prophet. Yes, there are other oracles in Isaiah, most of them predicting what will take place in particular nations/ areas. All I'm saying (for now) is that Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam) fulfilled the oracle concerning Arabia.

Peace

[Believer]

Greetings,

Well, let's see,
Two brothers, Isaac and Ishmael, have children. The children of
Isaac would be cousins to the children of Ishmael, correct?
That's the point I'm illustrating. But yes both are children of Abraham, but not necessarily all brothers.

You stated:
"Anyway, Isa (alayhi salam) was a Jew, not from amongst the brothers of the Jews."
What does this mean? Jesus came from the line of David.

Peace,

[ibnleroy]

Believer, you can't be serious. You know exactly what is meant when the Jews and Arabs say they are brothers to one another. Nice try, but sorry.

[Believer]

Greetings,

You know what I meant, helper.
Define brother as you like.
Besides, I keep posting on this site that God made his convenent with Isaac. All of the prophets are Israelites, etc.
It would be impossible for God to give His final revelations to Muhammed, an Ishmaelite. This would imply that God is treacherous.
Are you so sure your not following another God?

Also I anticipate your answer to that question about Jesus.

Blessings,

[imported_muslim]

helper posted the following:
"The Lord your God will raise up for you A PROPHET LIKE ME from among your own BROTHERS. You must listen to him" (Deut. 18: 15). This is Musa, aka Moses (alayhi salam), addressing his people collectively.

Believer replied with the following:
"A PROPHET LIKE ME"- A prophet whose like God himself
Jesus Christ!

helper replied with the following:
"A prophet like me," was spoken by Musa (alayhi salam), not Allah. And in the next verse I cited, Allah says to Musa (alayhi salam), "a prophet like you." So saying Isa (alayhi salam) was "like God" is not a fulfillment of this prophecy.

I anticipate Believer's reply to this.

[Believer]

Greetings,

Ah, indeed I errored there.
It is true that this prophet is to be like Moses.
I posted comparisons between Jesus and Moses, many of which were so unique that the prophet could more likely be Him.
The comparisons between Moses and Muhammed are more ambiguous and could apply to other prophets and holy men.

For Christ is a Prophet a brother of the Israelites, like Moses.
He is of the line of King David.
My previous posting pertains to this subject, also.

Peace,

[mujahid1]

AsslamOAlaikum,

Br. Beilever,

The prophecy is "The Lord your God will raise up for you A PROPHET LIKE ME from among your own BROTHERS. You must listen to him" (Deut. 18: 15)."

I hope you realize that its "YOUR BROTHERS". And not among YOU. And it also says a Prophet like me, you made some parallels but you forgot the most important one.

Moses was only a human being. Is the Bibical Jesus only a human being?

Also I would like to include another prophecy:

"And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran (Mecca in Arabic), and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (Deuteronomy 33:2, KJV)

This verse is clearly refering to Muslims advent to Mecca to establish God's message. The city mentioned is Mecca, the number or saints 10,000.

[Believer]

Dear Mujahid,

What word could be used to indicate that this Prophet was an Israelite? I'd generally think brother, right?
An Ishmaelite would be a cousin, right?
So define brother as you'd like, it is irrelevant.
God made his convanent with Isaac!
All of the True Prophets are Israelites.
The promised Messiah was to be an Israelite.
It would be impossible for God to give His final revelations to Muhammed, an Ishmaelite.
Would God skip out on His own people?
This would imply that God is treacherous.
Are you so sure your not following another God?



Peace.

[mujahid1]

AsslamOAlikum brother,

Alright I see your point about someone being a brother. But stil the question remians, the prophet mentioned was "among brothers", but the Messiah mentioned in Isiah was among "them".

Nonetheless you didnot comment on the verse I provided.

As far as sending the final revelation to Ishmaelite is concerneed, then what was the whole point of mentioning the coming of a Messiah hundreds of years before the Jews got corrupted? Was was a Messiah sent in the first place?

Jesus himself said: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matt. 21:43)

And also God's covonent to Ishmael:

"And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. (Genesis 17:19-21)"

If you look from any stand point at all, we see the Jews going to the max by trying to kill the Messiah that was prophecised to them. Is this not enough reason?

Wasslam

[Believer]

Greetings,


This prophecy that you use to try to prove Muhammed as the Great Prophet is far too ambiguous and not something to back up Islam with.
It's is far more likely supporting Jesus.

"Nonetheless you didnot comment on the verse I provided"
Most of this discussion on this page is based around that verse.
...



"Jesus himself said: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matt. 21:43)"
Read Matt. 21:43-47, the Pharisees recognize Jesus is speaking to them.
This could easily mean that the Kingdom of God is no longer jusy for the Jews, but also for the Gentile nation.
...


"If you look from any stand point at all, we see the Jews going to the max by trying to kill the Messiah that was prophecised to them. Is this not enough reason?"

And why do you think those Jews sought to kill the Messiah?
Not because He was a wise and pure man.
Not because He was an advocate for the poor and a great teacher.
It must be because He declared Himself the Son of God.
This is considered ultamite blaspheme if you were just a man.
The Jews didn't recognize Jesus as divine.
The Jews expected the true messiah to be a great leader and overthrow the oppressive Romans. But Christ didn't come to establish an earthly kingdom.

So, how can you justify Muhammed's prophethood?
You can search the Bible, but the Bible has nothing to offer for him.

Why can't you as a Muslim justify Zoroaster's prophethood?
You don't recognize Zoroaster as a prophet in Islam.
His experiences were VERY similar to Muhammed's.

[mujahid1]

AsslamOAlikum,

Brother these words of Jesus are sufficent to prove that Jews were no longer recieve the blessings of God after their continued treachery. Whether the words of Jesus are applicable to Prophet Muhammad or not is a different story, but they do however clearly prove that Prophethood was now being taken away from the Jews.

I provided you with a clear reference to Prophet Muhammad in Deut.

Your contention about Zoraster is once again out of context, however it only goes to prove that God's message is consistent and doesnot change. The similarities between Prophet Muhammad and Moses have been discussed as well.

But the similarlty between Christianity and Pagan religions is amayzing.
1. The concept of God being born of a virgin mortal woman: Borrowed from pagan religions.
2. God walking in flesh among humans Borrowed from pagan religions.

Many God in pagan religions were human and Gods at the same time, and born of Virgins after “God’s” will. The number of such Gods is probably innumerable but some are… Dionysus born of Seemele, Attis and Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the “Spirit” to bear a God son.
Did Jews ever believe in something similar NO Never.

3. God bringing salvation to man Borrowed from pagan religions.
4. God in human form being called things like, Savior, Lamb of God, the Begotten Son, Shepard etc

Dionysus was a great savior, so was Osiris, Mithras (whose birth is/was celebrated on December 25th), so was Attis. Dionysus was called Only Begotten Son, Savior, Sin bearer, etc. Mithras was Savior, Son of God, Redeemer, and Lamb of God etc. Attis was called Sheppard, Only Begotten Son, Savior. etc.

5. God performing miracles, such bring dead to life Borrowed from pagan religions
Jesus miracles are not unique to him. Not even in the Bible. For example Elisha. All the “gods” I mentioned healed the blind, cured the sick and brought dead to life. Nothing new here.

6. Baptism Borrowed from pagan religions.
The concept of Baptism as performed in Christianity is almost an exact replica of many pagans. The followers of Attis had the taurobolium, and the mystery of Osiris knew a sanctifying baptismal bath, as did the mysteries of Dionysus and of Mithras.

7. God put on cross Borrowed from pagan religions.
8. God dying and resurrecting Borrowed from pagan religions.
9. God is going to come back in original form to save the world and rule over it Borrowed from pagan religions.
Dionysus was put on the cross, died came back alive is Savior of mankind and will come back later on in the world. He too died, is a savior, came back to life to go to the heavens and will be coming back. Attis another God died, came back alive, went to heaven and will be coming back.

Remember the Deut. in which it is proven that anyone hangged is acursed of God. That is why Jesus was crucified to prove him to be accursed of God.

Wasslam

[Believer]

Greetings,

I must contest to what you have said.


Prophethood was not taken from the Jews! you cannot infer that!
Jesus was a Jew, and a far greater Prophet and Teacher then Muhammed ever was.

The verse in Deut. is not pointing to Muhammed, but Jesus Christ as I have argued. You cannot disprove this.

Jesus and Moses share many unique and astonishing similarities.
Muhammed and Moses share more ambiguous similarities.
It can be inferred that Jesus and Moses are far more similiar.

Muhammed and Zoroaster have more similarities then with Moses.
...


I have already argued with Helper about those paganisms.
Those pagan sects died out a LONG time ago!
I doubt that EVERYONE who knew of Jesus and wrote about Him would of "made up" the same story. Myths form many centuries after ones's life, not with in the immediate frame of time after one's death.

Christianity was once a persecuted sect, now it is the #1 world faith, I doubt Zues and Dionysus were behind this.
...


Your faith is far likely to of been fabricated by men.
I see NOTHING in your faith that COULDN'T of been made up.
You faith is so ununique. Your views on salvation are just the same as most pagan religions.

Islam is likely just a fusion of Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Sabean beliefs with some pre-Islamic Arabian paganism and a little imagination. And we know nothing about what the Sabeans believed. Muhammed was once a Sabean. Beliefs from their scriptures could of been strikingly similiar to Islamic beliefs.

You faith is not distiguished enough from other cults and heresies with a "prophet" and a "progressive message" with their own "holy book" and who preach of "one god."; but its their own interpretaion of God.


Blessings

[ibnleroy]

Believer,

I failed to mention when I first started this thread that the Prophet prophesied in Deuteronomy and the Christ are two different individuals, as evidenced by John 1: 19-21 -

"Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'"

This passage clearly indicates that the Jews were expecting the appearence of three distinct personalities:
1. the Christ
2. Elijah
3. the Prophet
Since Isa (alayhi salam) filled the first slot of expected personalities, him being the Prophet spoken of in the Torah is ruled out.

Peace

[ibnleroy]

Believer,

I failed to mention when I first started this thread that the Prophet spoken of in Deut. and the Christ are two different individuals. This is evident from John 1: 19-21 -

"Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'"

This passage clearly indicates that the Jews were expecting the appearance of three distinct personalities:
1) the Christ
2) Elijah
3) the Prophet
Since Isa (alayhi salam) filled the slot of expected personality number one, he is ruled out as personality number three: the Prophet.

Peace

[loveforall]

hi believer!
first of all i would like to say hello to all memebers of forum caz i am new in this site and forum.
now come to the point.

\"The Jews didn't recognize Jesus as divine."

my question is "why"? is they have nothing for jesus to prove him as a son of God.?

and second is

\"The Jews expected the true messiah to be a great leader and
overthrow the oppressive Romans. But Christ didn't come to
establish an earthly kingdom."

so what is "expectation".?
is GOD always fulfill the expectation of his creation.? Charistains are also not extpected that an Arab person is the final and last Prophet of prophethood chain.
so that's why u also cann't accept this REALITY.

loveforall



loveforall

[ibnleroy]

Believer,

I failed to mention when I first started this thread that the Prophet spoken of in Deut. and the Christ are two different individuals. This is evident from John 1: 19-21 -

"Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'"

This passage clearly indicates that the Jews were expecting the appearance of three distinct personalities:
1) the Christ
2) Elijah
3) the Prophet
Since Isa (alayhi salam) filled the slot of expected personality number one, he is ruled out as personality number three: the Prophet.

BTW, Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam) was never a Sabean. Where in the world did you pull that out from?

Peace

[ibnleroy]

My computer was acting up for a moment and I thought that my reply was not posted. That's why it appears twice.

Also, Believer, where in the world did you get this idea that Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wa salam) was a Sabean? Is that some kind of joke? Please refrain from unfounded, totally off-the-wall statements in the future. It would be appreciated.

[Believer]

And I suppose they expected Elijah to come twice, right?

Peace,

[ibnleroy]

You can see for yourself in the passage that the priests questioned John as to if he was three different people. He denied being any of them. If you want to know about Elijah and what the Jews may have been referring to in the passage, this is not the place. You should consult a rabbi and ask him about it.

Peace

[Believer]

Greetings all,
Welcome loveforall!

loveforall,

There is nothing in the Bible that says the Messiah was going to physically remove any Roman control and physically free Israel.
The Jews anticipated the Messiah would do what they just expected Him to do, free them of Rome.

"Charistains are also not extpected that an Arab person is the final and last Prophet of prophethood chain."

Of course not! That would be completely against anything God said He would do. Ishmael was illigitamitely concieved. He was a wild man confined to the desert. The Bible also states that Ishmael's descendants would be hostile to their neighbors. God would not give Prophethood to these pigs! Do you imply that God is cheap and treacherous?

Eventually you will realize, based on logic, the Muhammed is not a prophet of the Living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Perhaps he's of your god, like Zoroaster is a prophet for his god. Both gods, not being the God of Israel, I question even exist.
And Face it! None of the Prophets from the Bible confirm Islam. They confirm the Messiah. Islam is no different from a variety of other cults. Also, nothing pre-Quranic back's up Islam.
How can you justify what you believe?
...

Helper,

Do you believe that Elijah was to come again? Can you really infer from the word "Prophet" that it's all of a sudden Muhammed?
The Jews asked if John was the Messiah, not the Christ.
Jesus Christ the the Messiah and the Prophet. He is the greatest Prophet the world has ever seen! His teachings were so perfect and pure, that even Muhammed failed to live by them!!!


Muhammed, like I said before, is a FARCRY from Christ.
Islam has made Prophethood a very cheap thing!
Budhha, Mahavira, Guru Nanat, Ghandi, and Zoroaster would of made tremendously better prophets and teachers then Muhammed.


Peace

[loveforall]

Hi believer

Thanks you very much for warm welcome.
Dear I don’t want to listen the verses of Bible and Quran . why not u people understand that it is very important to make peace and humanity in the world not proving “I am right and you are wrong.

I am sorry but both the followers of Bible and Quran have failed to imposed their religion in their life.
Christianity is the religion of peace and love. But they are also creating disturbance in the peace of world like Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam
And japan.

On other hand , what happened in Muslim countries the country like Pakistan so many killed in name of so called their religion .

Is this a faith who force their follower to kill other non followers make the world unmerciful.

Plz consider the humanity is only thing which we kept up in our hearts then we succeed to prove our religion is the only one.


loveforall

[Believer]

Peace,

Well, you're sort of right, but here's what I have to say:

It is not because of Christianity that those countries were invaded.
Those things were done by America and other Western countries. America is not a "Christian" country. It is a secular country, but the majority of people are Christians. They aren't trying to "impose" Christianity on any country. Those countries that you stated were in no state of peace when we arrived. America was only trying to help in Afganistan, Iraq, and Palestine to name a few. Secular humanism is causing trouble for our faith, it's making the church too subtle and inactive politically.

In the Islamic world there is the opposite effect. Fanatical fundementalists are trying to seize control of many of your countries.
Religion and state in places like Iran are indistinguishable.
This is causing very serious problems for minority religious groups, like Christians. The Christian doesn't know if he'll be arrested and beaten tommorrow because he's not a muslim.

There are serious problems in our world that make peace impossible.
This won't change because many people are mislead, and not everyone will see the light.

Blessings

[ibnleroy]

Believer

Messiah and Christ mean the same thing. You should have known that. The Messiah/Christ and the Prophet are two different individuals. That should have been clear from the passage I shared with you.