View Full Version : Oh people of the Book, can you
armiyya
17th March 2003, 00:50
read the following and please explain whom we really should worship?
Mark 12, 28-34
The dialogue
Scribe: "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Jesus: "The foremost is, 'Hear, o Israel! The Lord our God is One Lord. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' the second is this, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' there is no other commandment greater than these."
Scribe: "Right, teacher; you have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him. And to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbour as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
Luke 10, 25-37
The dialogue:
Lawyer: "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Jesus, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
Lawyer: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself."
Jesus, "You have answered correctly; do this and you will live."
Lawyer: "And who is my neighbour?"
Jesus, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbour to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
Lawyer: "The one who showed mercy toward him."
Jesus, "Go and do the same."
Matthew 22 35-45
The dialogue:
Lawyer: "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Jesus, " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'you shall love your neighbour as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
Lawyer: (talks with fellow the Pharisees,)
Jesus, "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is he?"
Pharisees: "The son of David."
Jesus, "Then how does David in the spirit call him 'lord,' saying, 'the Lord said to my lord, "sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies beneath your feet”? If David then calls him 'lord', how is he his son?"
Deuteronomy 4-8, & 12-15
LOVING THE LORD
“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God (Adonay 'Elohêynu). The Lord is One (Adonay 'echâdh)! You shall love the Lord your God (Adonay 'Eloheykha) with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”
The importance of this concept is underlined in the next few verses: First, the teaching .... . Secondly, remembering .... .
"These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.”
“Then watch yourself, that you do not forget the LORD Who brought you from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall fear only the Lord your God. And you shall worship Him and swear by His name. You shall not follow other gods or any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; lest the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.”
Leviticus 13-18
LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR
“You shall not oppress your neighbour, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning. You shall not curse a deaf man, nor place a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall revere your God.” ('Eloheykha)
“I am the Lord.” ('aniy Adonay)
“You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbour fairly. You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbour.”
“I am the Lord.” ('aniy Adonay)
'You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbour, but shall not incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbour as yourself.”
“I am the Lord.” ('aniy Adonay)
__________________
ÇÑãíÇÁ
Say: O People of the Scripture! Let us come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).
Al 'Imran: 64
Scribe: "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
God: "The foremost is, 'Hear, o Israel! The Lord our God is One Lord. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' the second is this, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' there is no other commandment greater than these."
Scribe: "Right, teacher; you have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him. And to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbour as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
God: "You are not far from the kingdom of God."
God: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is he?"
Pharisees: "The son of David."
God: "Then how does David in the spirit call him 'lord,' saying, 'the Lord said to my lord, "sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies beneath your feet”? If David then calls him 'lord', how is he his son?"
Jesus is not the "physical" son of David anymore than
he is the "physical son of God". son only implies the
nature of Jesus in the trinity and the relation he has
with David.
Christianity is a religion for schizophrenics.
From reading Numbers 23:10, Numbers 24:17, Psalm 89 either important
passages Moses and David wrote are hopelessly corrupted or God himself would live among the Israelites and die. It is clear that there is some corruption of the texts. Especially in OT historical sections where there seem to be some fables and number mismatches. The story of Samson seems corrupted. Perhaps Samson killed 30 and not 3000 by himself.
armiyya
17th March 2003, 10:13
Scribe: "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
God: "The foremost is, 'Hear, o Israel! The Lord our God is One Lord. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
I am glad you acknowledge that God is the source of the words Jesus says.
Edited by - armiyya on 03/17/2003 04:16:44
There is not much difference between
saying "I believe in God and this parable" and
I believe in Jesus.
armiyya
17th March 2003, 21:04
There is not much difference between
saying "I believe in God and this parable" and
I believe in Jesus.
Oh Lord forgive me for what I am about to edit. It is done in a spirit of enquiry.
nr. Do you believe that:
(paraphrased)
Jesus your God is One Lord. And you shall love the Jesus your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
Jesus is One, and there is no one else besides Jesus. And to love Jesus with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Believe in this, and you are not far from the kingdom of Jesus."
?
If not, how would you modify the statement to fall in with your belief?
Armiyya
(Estagfirullah!!!)
Jesus is God but only one person of the trinity.
You left out the verses above the parable.
"19
Behold, I have given you the power 'to tread upon serpents' and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you.
20
Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
No one has this power but God. And if Jesus was a prophet
he would have said that "God have given you the power...".
"At that very moment he rejoiced (in) the holy Spirit and said, "I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. 9 Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will.
22
All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."
23
Turning to the disciples in private he said, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
24
For I say to you, many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it."
The Father and the Son are one.
If you want to know what the Church believes there
is no need to ask. Look it up
http://www.catholic.org/clife/catechism/
armiyya
18th March 2003, 00:10
Jesus is God but only one person of the trinity.
Please note the wording:
"The Lord our God is One Lord."
and
"He is One, and there is no one else besides Him"
compared to
"Jesus our God is one Jesus."
or
"The Lord our Jesus is one Lord."
and
"Jesus is ONE and there is NO ONE ELSE BESIDE him."
I am not asking about "Christian belief" or "Catholic belief" (I was Roman Catholic, but leaning towards Puritanical Protestantism before I found the truth in Islam - submission to the Only God, Allah). I'm asking about you - what do these words mean to you?
Don't be afraid! Think with your heart.
armiyya
18th March 2003, 00:14
You left out the verses above the parable.
"19
Behold, I have given you the power 'to tread upon serpents' and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you.
20
Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
"At that very moment he rejoiced (in) the holy Spirit and said, "I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. 9 Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will.
22
All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."
23
Turning to the disciples in private he said, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.
24
For I say to you, many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it."
Is this a normal tactic of the Christians? To take a quotation from a parallel gospel to prove a point with a second gospel, and then add a line from yet a third gospel (The Father and the Son are one).
that is not even synoptic (admitedly without inclusion in the quotation marks).
Let us even start earlier for the context (which is not an introduction to a "parable' but an encouragement to 70 odd preachers he is sending out to preach).
16: He that hears you, hears me. And he that despises you, despises Him who sent me"
(here Jesus clearly alludes to himself as a prophet sent by God.)
17: And the seventy turned again with Joy, saying "Lord, even the devils are subjected to us through your name."
(The one's who needed the pep talk)
18: And he said to them, "I beheld Satan like lightening falling from heaven"
(A vision is reported following which God's words to them are revealed by Jesus).
Besides, "the commandment", as declared in Luke, is not a parable given by Jesus, but a quotation from Deuteronomy made by the Lawyer at Jesus' prompting.
If we go to the other synoptic gospels, an entirely different set of events precede the declaration of the commandment:
In Mark he declares, as part of an answer to a conundrum about whse wife a woman would be in heaven,
"Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Mark.12:26-7).
In Matthew, the same event is reported in Matt. 22:31-2
"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Armiyya
Edited by - armiyya on 03/17/2003 18:20:34
armiyya
18th March 2003, 00:19
Peace, nr,
Let's take a look at your quote from John, and let us see it in it's true context.
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them,
"I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
Just picking aout a few phrases (Generally ignored by trinity pushers) below helps to see the whole in perspective
"I do in my father's name" "The works (miracles) I do ... testify (what I am).
"Hear my voice ... eternal life"
"My Father ... has given ... to me." "Out of my hand ... My Father's hand."
Earlier still, he said,
"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
Authority ..... recieved from the Father!!
Yes, indeed Jesus was given a special authority, and inward one. He knew when he spoke that he was totally controlled by God.
John 8:28
So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Does this dependence upon God make Jesus God?
Finally, Jesus himself admonishes you not to equate him (who is earthly) with God, (who is 'the Father'):
Matthew 23:9
"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Armiyya
Edited by - armiyya on 03/17/2003 18:23:42
Is this a normal tactic of the Christians? To take a quotation from a parallel gospel to prove a point with a second gospel, and then add a line from yet a third gospel (The Father and the Son are one).
that is not even synoptic (admitedly without inclusion in the quotation marks).
There is no tactic for you are the one who asked.
My belief is irrational from the heart. Demons will always
grow the weed of unfaithfullness first. Since we
have only one heart it is illogical to have more than one God.
I don't need a book to show me this.
But we do have more than one valve so that there are many ways
to know God and many ways that God can come to us.
For Jesus is the blood of life.
There is a difference between the stmt Jesus is God and the stmt
Jesus is the only nature of God.
Why do you think that you can find contradictions in the
NT when the gospel was written by the Church 30 years after Jesus' death? The writers knew that Jesus was the face of God.
Did not Jesus say "I and the father are one".
Even fullfilled OT prophesys prove that Messiah was God.
Many things the church teaches can be found by allegory also.
luke 12:35
He also said to the crowds, "When you see (a) cloud rising in the west you say immediately that it is going to rain--and so it does;
55
and when you notice that the wind is blowing from the south you say that it is going to be hot--and so it is.
56
You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time?
57
"Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?
58
If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison.
59
I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
I don't need the bible to believe in purgatory it is clearly
evident. But I can use allegory here for Jesus is the judge
and the prison is purgatory. Jesus never says that
the clouds of hypocrisy block them from seeing that he
is the Messiah and that the fires of hell are close. All of
these things are just as evident as is Jesus being God.
My first quote is from Luke 10:21 right before
Luke 10:25 that you quoted.
All verses in the Bible must be understood
context of the *complete* book.
Why do you think you must be "reborn" to be saved?
Because in Moses's time to see the face of God meant death.
This was well known we see it Exodus, Samson etc.
But Jesus is not the face of the Father.
John 1
10 John testified to him and cried out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.'"
16
From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace, 11
17
because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, 12 who is at the Father's side, has revealed him.
19
13 14 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "Who are you?"
armiyya
18th March 2003, 02:12
My first quote is from Luke 10:21 right before
Luke 10:25 that you quoted.
Peace, nr,
Check again.
I quoted Luke in my original post, but you quoted Luke with (as if it preceded) my quote from Matthew/Mark
Edited by - armiyya on 03/17/2003 20:23:20
armiyya
18th March 2003, 02:19
All verses in the Bible must be understood
context of the *complete* book.
Peace, nr.
I advise you to take your own advice.
And John and Jesus were contemporaries born within 6 months of each other. Jesus did not come 'after him' but operated within the same timespan. When John was imprisoned, he even sent for John's disciples in a gesture of consolidation.
The one who came after (both John and Jesus) was Paul, the apostle of "the vision on the road to Damascus" - or, if you don't count him a prophet, John the devine who recieved 'Revelation'. If you discount both of those, then it must be the very same spirit of Truth that Jesus prophesied would come after him.
Armiyya
John the Baptist did not write this book.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/intro.htm
"The one who came after (both John and Jesus) was Paul, the apostle of "the vision on the road to Damascus" - or, if you don't count him a prophet, John the devine who recieved 'Revelation'. If you discount both of those, then it must be the very same spirit of Truth that Jesus prophesied would come after him."
Please check your history on this. Saul was a pharisee who
changed his name after his vision of Christ. In his
Gospel of letters, there are no quotes to the Gospels of John, Luke,
etc because they did not exist.
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj13.htm
armiyya
18th March 2003, 03:23
Peace, nr.
If I offend in anyway by my manner of debate, I ask for forgiveness. Please let me know if I offend you, and how. I will try to modify my style accordingly.
There is no tactic for you are the one who asked.
You yourself requoted the conversation between the scribe and Jesus, substituting God for Jesus. Then you claimed the verses of Luke preceded one of Jesus' famous 'parables' - clearly intimating the statement about the Oneness of God was a parable spoken by him. Don't tell me you forgot the roles were exchanged in Luke, Jesus making the question and the lawyer answering? No, it was deliberate misrepresentation of the scripture.
Since we have only one heart it is illogical to have more than one God. I don't need a book to show me this.
Why does one follow from the other? What about creatures not only with two hearts, but two brains. Do they have two Gods. Aren't humans made "in the image of God", and they are two - a pair, male and female? Don't we have two eyes to see with and teo ears to hear with, so is not that evidence that everything comes in pairs. So God is "a pair". The rationalisation is farcicle!
1. But we do have more than one valve
2. so that there are many ways to know God and many ways that God can come to us.
I'm sorry - but you are linking totally divorced concepts together. Why does having 4 valves in the heart mean there are many ways to know God. Both statements are true, but where is the connection?
There is a difference between the stmt Jesus is God and the stmt
Jesus is the only nature of God.
Absolutely true. I was playing your game of substitution. Jesus = God, so substitute the word "God" or it's equivalent (yhwh/kirios/Lord) and see where it takes you. It is Jesus himself, and one of the scribes who confirms, that the nature of God is ONE.
Now, if you count the times that Jesus says he was sent by God, it comes to 89 times in the Bible. Seven of those are in the synoptic gospels, while 82 times he says it in the Gospel of John. Talk about taking the context of "the whole book".
The writers knew that Jesus was the face of God.
The writers writing 30 years later "knew"? Where was their evidence - the chain of narrators between them and the desciples?
Did not Jesus say "I and the father are one".
I have already given the context. And another verse from John in which he specifically says that God authorised him to act from himself as if he carried 'God' inside him. That is, made him an absolute authority while he was on earth (You'll find he did the same for Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, and probably for other prophets in the Bible). From many other verses, he refers to the Father as a separate from him and in authority over him. This one verse then has to be seen in the context of THE REST OF THE BOOK. The oneness is of purpose, and temporal authority, not of being.
Even fullfilled OT prophesys prove that Messiah was God.
Which ones? Is the Massiah (anointed one) God or a representative of God in these prophecies. Or is the interpretation of these prophecies tainted by the dogma of trinity?
Many things the church teaches can be found by allegory also.
Is that a safe way of interpreting God's word? Through symbolic and figurative generalisations, from actions and fictional characters, and representations of 'truth'. Parallels that are forced, rather than natural. And read the Passage you quote. Jesus is asking if you cannot predict from concrete evidence. Know from actual, rather than symbolic or figurative, signs. Allah says the same in the Qur'an. Look at the manifest signs (not the figurative and symbolic signs).
He tells them to JUDGE. Tell me, does 'a Judge' convict a criminal on figurative and symbolic evidence or on concrete facts?
Further more, Jesus advises you not to leave the decision you are judging for some other to judge for you, but try to settle the matter for judgement yourself - lest the Judgement of others backfires on you, and you end up paying dearly for your lack of judgement.
I don't need the bible to believe in purgatory it is clearly
evident. But I can use allegory here for Jesus is the judge
and the prison is purgatory.
Read the verse again! He is saying "don't take it before a judge if you can avoid it. Not even himself!"
Jesus never says that the clouds of hypocrisy block them from seeing that he is the Messiah and that the fires of hell are close. All of
these things are just as evident as is Jesus being God.
Well, judging from the misinterpretation of the clear verses you have just quoted, one has to wonder about what seems 'evident' to you. It is obviously something entirely different to what "seems evident" to me.
Armiyya
Why does one follow from the other? What about creatures not only with two hearts, but two brains. Do they have two Gods. Aren't humans made "in the image of God", and they are two - a pair, male and female? Don't we have two eyes to see with and teo ears to hear with, so is not that evidence that everything comes in pairs. So God is "a pair". The rationalisation is farcicle!
It was a metaphore. How can we have two God's in one heart?
I'm sorry - but you are linking totally divorced concepts together. Why does having 4 valves in the heart mean there are many ways to know God. Both statements are true, but where is the connection?
The valves let in the blood just as we are supposed to drink
the blood of christ.
Don't tell me you forgot the roles were exchanged in Luke, Jesus making the question and the lawyer answering? No, it was deliberate misrepresentation of the scripture.
I was emphasizing that we should worship God only.
Is that a safe way of interpreting God's word? Through symbolic and figurative generalisations, from actions and fictional characters, and representations of 'truth'.
Church doesn't go sola scripture but this passage does prove
to me that there is purgatory. There are some other places
but you will have to look them up. Isn't this a better use
of allegory than the botching of communion? The first paragraph
was clearly allegory and that leads into the second paragraph.
The message is reconcile with God before God judges you and throws you into purgatory/hell. This all goes together with the common
theme of the first paragraph.
Now, if you count the times that Jesus says he was sent by God, it comes to 89 times in the Bible. Seven of those are in the synoptic gospels, while 82 times he says it in the Gospel of John. Talk about taking the context of "the whole book".
I send myself where I want to go. No contradiction.
If Jesus was not Sent by God the only other possibility is
Sent by Satan. We all are sent by God to do his will.
Which ones? Is the Massiah (anointed one) God or a representative of God in these prophecies. Or is the interpretation of these prophecies tainted by the dogma of trinity?
Numbers 23 This goes back to Genesis where the serpent is
forced to eat dust.
1 Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: From Aram has Balak brought me here, Moab's king, from the Eastern Mountains: "Come and lay a curse for me on Jacob, come and denounce Israel."
8
How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9
2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations.
10
3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
Numbers 24:17 predicts Jesus
Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: The utterance of Balaam, son of Beor, the utterance of the man whose eye is true,
16
The utterance of one who hears what God says, and knows what the Most High knows, Of one who sees what the Almighty sees, enraptured and with eyes unveiled.
17
2 I see him, though not now; I behold him, though not near: A star shall advance from Jacob, and a staff shall rise from Israel, That shall smite the brows of Moab, and the skulls of all the Shuthites,
18
Till Edom is dispossessed, and no fugitive is left in Seir. Israel shall do valiantly,
19
and Jacob shall overcome his foes.
Numbers 11:18 implicitly predicts pentecost.
The LORD answered Moses, "Is this beyond the LORD'S reach? You shall see now whether or not what I have promised you takes place."
24
So Moses went out and told the people what the LORD had said. Gathering seventy elders of the people, he had them stand around the tent.
25
3 The LORD then came down in the cloud and spoke to him. Taking some of the spirit that was on Moses, he bestowed it on the seventy elders; and as the spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied.
26
Now two men, one named Eldad and the other Medad, were not in the gathering but had been left in the camp. They too had been on the list, but had not gone out to the tent; yet the spirit came to rest on them also, and they prophesied in the camp.
27
So, when a young man quickly told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp,"
28
Joshua, son of Nun, who from his youth had been Moses' aide, said, "Moses, my lord, stop them."
29
But Moses answered him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the people of the LORD were prophets! Would that the LORD might bestow his spirit on them all!"
Numbers 13 The 12 have a similar mission
to the 12 deciples. The invisible is shown
by the visible. John the Baptist
mission that was to make the hills flat.
The LORD said to Moses,
2
"Send men to reconnoiter the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites. You shall send one man from each ancestral tribe, all of them princes."
3
So Moses dispatched them from the desert of Paran, as the LORD had ordered. All of them were leaders among the Israelites;
4
by name they were: Shammua, son of Zaccur, of the tribe of Reuben;
5
Shaphat, son of Hori, of the tribe of Simeon;
6
Caleb, son of Jephunneh, of the tribe of Judah;
7
Igal (son of Joseph), of the tribe of Issachar;
8
Hoshea, son of Nun, of the tribe of Ephraim;
9
Palti, son of Raphu, of the tribe of Benjamin;
10
Gaddiel, son of Sodi, of the tribe of Zebulun;
11
Gaddi, son of Susi, of the tribe of Manasseh, for the Josephites, with
12
Ammiel, son of Gemalli, of the tribe of Dan;
13
Sethur, son of Michael, of the tribe of Asher;
14
Nahbi, son of Vophsi, of the tribe of Naphtali;
15
Geuel, son of Machi, of the tribe of Gad.
16
1 These are the names of the men whom Moses sent out to reconnoiter the land. But Hoshea, son of Nun, Moses called Joshua.
17
In sending them to reconnoiter the land of Canaan, Moses said to them, "Go up here in the Negeb, up into the highlands,
18
and see what kind of land it is. Are the people living there strong or weak, few or many?
19
Is the country in which they live good or bad? Are the towns in which they dwell open or fortified?
20
Is the soil fertile or barren, wooded or clear? And do your best to get some of the fruit of the land." It was then the season for early grapes.
Look at "I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
"I say to you". This phrase would not be necessary
if the parable did not have two meanings. He will literally
say "you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
to those in purgatory.
armiyya
18th March 2003, 09:59
Dear nr,
***********
Numbers 23 This goes back to Genesis where the serpent is
forced to eat dust.
***********
Can you explain? I can't see the connection. Are you trying to link the crushing of serpents and scorpions beneath the preacher's feet to the oracle of Balam? What is the connection?
**********
Numbers 24:17 predicts Jesus
**********
Again explain. In Jesus' time Israel overcame no one, let alone the descendants of Esau.
**********
Numbers 11:18 implicitly predicts pentecost.
**********
Again explain. Two men 'touched by God' and prophesying during the life of the extant prophet. Is this supposed to be linked to the 'tongues of fire' passage in Acts. What are the parellels? and where is the prophesy?
********
Numbers 13 The 12 have a similar mission to the 12 deciples.
********
I can definitely see the parallels in this passage. But why this normal precaution of Moses message (in preparation for the occupation of Canaan - ie: not the sending out to preach) used as a 'prophesying link' to Jesus. and 12 certainly does not equate to 70, unless you are referring to the other sending out "to preach to all the nations". The objectives of the two sending out, however, have nothing in common. Please explain.
*********
The invisible is shown by the visible. John the Baptist mission that was to make the hills flat.
*********
??????? That is a new one on me. What do you mean?
Armiyya
armiyya
18th March 2003, 10:17
Dear nr,
********
I send myself where I want to go. No contradiction.
********
Many definitions of "send" are given in Websters dictionary, all of which assume an agent propelling and object, none of which assume an agent propelling itself. My favourite definition was in this context was: "to dispatch someone to convey a message or do an errand", which seems to fit the what God does with his prophets.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
[quote]
Note: "I have not even come of my own initiative". That pretty well denies what you say directly.
In addition, he denies his own initiative even in his words and actions of his mission:
[quote]
John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 8:28
So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 12:49
"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
[quote]
******
If Jesus was not Sent by God the only other possibility is
Sent by Satan.
*******
So you agree he was sent!! What kind of double-talk are you speaking?
********
We all are sent by God to do his will.
********
In the Qur'an that is the reason He tells us we were created. To doHhis will, which is to worship Him alone. Is this what you mean by 'sent'? 'Created' in this world?
Armiyya
Edited by - armiyya on 03/18/2003 15:43:52
armiyya
18th March 2003, 10:24
Dear nr,
"I say to you". This phrase would not be necessary
if the parable did not have two meanings.
It could just be a figure of speech. An admonition to take seriously what he said.
Further more, the two meanings you want it to have can be merely a comparison between 'following the ordinances of men (judges=priests)' and 'following the admonition of God in your affairs' (Treat thy neighbour as youself - put things right in the spirit of neighbouliness)
Armiyya
3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
This is the God of the OT speaking.
It goes back to Genesis for man was created from dust.
A repair of the first curse on man kind.
Again explain. In Jesus' time Israel overcame no one, let alone the descendants of Esau.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05527c.htm
Jesus was tempted by Satan where he fasted for 40
days. At that time Satan tempted him to turn
the stones into bread. Jesus was tempted to give
up his "birth right". There are also parallels of
David slaying Goliah.
Again explain. Two men 'touched by God' and prophesying during the life of the extant prophet. Is this supposed to be linked to the 'tongues of fire' passage in Acts. What are the parellels? and where is the prophesy?
Even Jews should be puzzled.
It is a mystery that God's spirit can rest on multiple
persons yet He is still one.
The Holy Spirit is with us after baptism, at least until we sin. Very few prophesys but the 12 deciples spoke prophetically in tongues. This was to be a sign to the greeks.
http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/pagepaper2.html
What is remarkable about the account in Acts is that
there was no need for translation.
Today that our problem is not with the
oracle of Apollo -- the people "speaking in tongues" today are
doing it falsely.
So you agree he was sent!! What kind of double-talk are you speaking?
The Trinity is a mystery. Though it's the only mystery that
makes any sense if you hold the OT and NT as true.
It might be something that words cannot describe.
Since God created Logic (greeks observing nature)
it is possible that He is a
illogical being with multiple contradictions.
armiyya
18th March 2003, 21:40
3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
This is the God of the OT speaking. It goes back to Genesis for man was created from dust. A repair of the first curse on man kind.
Still find it hard to make a connection. Your explanation has to be more detailed. What is it that makes you relate one incident to the other?
Again explain. In Jesus' time Israel overcame no one, let alone the descendants of Esau.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05527c.htm
Jesus was tempted by Satan where he fasted for 40 *days. At that time Satan tempted him to turnthe stones into bread. Jesus was tempted to giveup his "birth right". There are also parallels of
David slaying Goliah.
I still don't follow. You are totally unclear.
It is a mystery that God's spirit can rest on multiple persons yet He is still one.
Why should anyone be puzzled by that? Was not Jesus AND John prophets? Did not Moses AND Aaron and Maryam recieve God's word? I don't follow you at all. After all, God is all hearing, All aware, and all communicates to whom he wishes.
The Holy Spirit is with us after baptism, at least until we sin.
The angels of God are in constant attendance, whether we sin or not. There is nothing strange in that. And they begin to write down our deeds only after puberty.
Very few prophesies, but the 12 deciples spoke prophetically in tongues. This was to be a sign to the Greeks. http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/pagepaper2.html
What is remarkable about the account in Acts is that there was no need for translation.
Is theis allegory or straight talk? Are you saying people did not need translators because they "heard the disciples in which ever tongue was native to them", or something else?
Today that our problem is not with the oracle of Apollo -- the people "speaking in tongues" today are doing it falsely.
I haven't a clue what you are on about
The Trinity is a mystery. Though it's the only mystery that makes any sense if you hold the OT and NT as true. It might be something that words cannot describe. Since God created Logic (Greeks observing nature) it is possible that He is an illogical being with multiple contradictions.
Estagfirullah!!! (May Allah forgive me for having read this paragraph). Am I glad I am not you on Judgement Day!!??
Edited by - armiyya on 03/18/2003 15:42:32
Still find it hard to make a connection. Your explanation has to be more detailed. What is it that makes you relate one incident to the other?
Man is dust. For dust you are and dust you will return.
Balaam was sent to curse the the Israelites. So putting
these two together with
"May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!"
Gives you the reason for God to return to earth
and "die".
Again explain. In Jesus' time Israel overcame no one, let alone the descendants of Esau.
In the OT, all of the tribes living around Israel correspond
to the offsprings of Satan. The forheads of Moab, metaphorically
mean the forheads of demons.
Esau gave up his birth right for food.
Jesus could have done the same
but doesn't. He conquers the sin of Esau. It is
possible though that this paragraph fortells David
and not Jesus. It's a bit unclear who is the star.
The angels of God are in constant attendance, whether we sin or not. There is nothing strange in that. And they begin to write down our deeds only after puberty.
Read acts. The disciples weren't able to spread the message
until they recieved the Holy Spirit.
Why should anyone be puzzled by that? Was not Jesus AND John prophets? Did not Moses AND Aaron and Maryam recieve God's word? I don't follow you at all. After all, God is all hearing, All aware, and all communicates to whom he wishes.
It rules out a single God seperate from his creation.
The God of the OT is not like Zeus who has a well defined
barrior.
Is theis allegory or straight talk? Are you saying people did not need translators because they "heard the disciples in which ever tongue was native to them", or something else?
I think that the disciples spoke in a trans like language that
everyone could understand. The oracle of Apollo spoke
in a trans like langauge that only the priest could understand.
Estagfirullah!!! (May Allah forgive me for having read this paragraph). Am I glad I am not you on Judgement Day!!??
Illogical -- A complement.
armiyya
19th March 2003, 00:51
Man is dust. For dust you are and dust you will return. Balaam was sent to curse the the Israelites. So putting these two together with "May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!" Gives you the reason for God to return to earth and "die".
*********
I'm sorry. I must be dumb. Why does it give a reason for God "to return" to earth (as if he is not omnipresent in his knowledge and awareness!!) and "die" (as if he is not everlasting endlesly being).
Again explain. In Jesus' time Israel overcame no one, let alone the descendants of Esau.
In the OT, all of the tribes living around Israel correspond to the offsprings of Satan.
***********
Why? (I thought they were the offspring of Adam through Noah.
The forheads of Moab, metaphorically mean the forheads of demons.
*********
Why? They may have been idolators - buts sons of demons?
Esau gave up his birth right for food.
********
No he didn't. He went to hunt on the command of his father, and then was tricked out of his inheritance by a domestic sheep. He did not "give up his birthright." It was stolen from him.
Jesus could have done the same but doesn't. He conquers the sin of Esau.
*********
well, since Esau was sinned against, rather than sinning, it kind of pulls the rug from out of that theory.
[quote]
It is possible though that this paragraph fortells David and not Jesus. It's a bit unclear who is the star.
*********
Yep! It just depends on how YOU (I don't mean it personally - but the Christian scholar) interpret it in the light of your belief system (trinity).
[quote]
The angels of God are in constant attendance, whether we sin or not. There is nothing strange in that. And they begin to write down our deeds only after puberty.
Read acts. The disciples weren't able to spread the message until they recieved the Holy Spirit.
*********
Read Luke 10: 2-11 (which forms part of the text we were discussing) , Matthew 10:1-20, Mark 3: 14-15, and 6: 7-13
[
It rules out a single God seperate from his creation.
********
No it doesn't. God is Omnipotent. He is able to do all things, even that which appears impossible to us. There is no barrier that hold him from awareness of us, nor one that precludes his response to us, if that is what you are driving at. But he is One, and omniscient, capable of simultaneously attending to every atom in the universe and sustaining it. However, he is the Creator, which precludes him from being part of the created. For if God was part of the created, who created Him? It doesn't hold water. This is the defined barrier.
Of course, it does not mean he cannot manifest part of Himself in creation. Moses requested that, and was shown "his back parts" because a full integration of God in the creatyion would utterly destroy the latter. In fact, in Islam, Moses actually died from the contact and was restored to life again - does that dismay you. It means that even if Jesus was resurrected, he was not the first. (Two other incidents are also recorded of 'resurrection': The man Who saw Jerusalem die when the temple was destroyed by Nebuchannezer, and saw it restored after a century or more had passed the Jews returned to Palestine.
And of course God is not like "Zeus". He is not like anything we can think of in creation.
I think that the disciples spoke in a trans like language that everyone could understand. The oracle of Apollo spoke in a trans like langauge that only the priest could understand.
**********
What has Apollo got to do with anything?
[quote]
Illogical -- A complement.
*******
God has no need of compliments, especially back-handed ones
Armiyya
I'm sorry. I must be dumb. Why does it give a reason for God "to return" to earth (as if he is not omnipresent in his knowledge and awareness!!) and "die" (as if he is not everlasting endlesly being).
He must return to fix the original sin of Adam.
Why? They may have been idolators - buts sons of demons?
Yes, because they are not the sons of Abraham. This
is why most christians will say that they are the sons
of Abraham through they are not in the flesh. Read the
passage with John the baptist who said "out of these stones
God can form sons of Abraham". This is why the God makes
the Israelites completly destroy the tribes living in Israel.
God makes it very clear that he will completly destroy Evil.
He is only using the tribes as an example. It doesn't mean
that they actually are sons of satan.
No he didn't. He went to hunt on the command of his father, and then was tricked out of his inheritance by a domestic sheep. He did not "give up his birthright." It was stolen from him.
You must read the bible version of Esau. He gave
up his birth right to his twin brother Jacob.
What has Apollo got to do with anything?
Christianity spread rapidly in the Roman/Greek empire.
This was a clear sign that God was better than the Greek Gods. A similar sign is where the snake of Moses eats
the magistians snakes.
armiyya
19th March 2003, 01:38
Do you mean this story?
If you do, it does say he 'despised' his name (Esau) because he ate red lentil soup that Jacob gave him when he was hungry. It does not say he gave up his birthright. That is in Genesis 27. If Edom means "red", there is a far more likely reason why he was nick named with the calling. His color when he was born. I wonder if the "thus he despised his name" is an interpolation to justify vilifying him, like the Bible vilifies Ishmael.
Genesis 25:25
Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau.
Genesis 25:26
Afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau's heel, so his name was called Jacob; and Isaac was sixty years old when she gave birth to them.
Genesis 25:27
When the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter, a man of the field, but Jacob was a peaceful man, living in tents.
Genesis 25:28
Now Isaac loved Esau, because he had a taste for game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
Genesis 25:29
When Jacob had cooked stew, Esau came in from the field and he was famished;
Genesis 25:30
and Esau said to Jacob, "Please let me have a swallow of that red stuff there, for I am famished." Therefore his name was called Edom.
Genesis 25:31
But Jacob said, "First sell me your birthright."
Genesis 25:32
Esau said, "Behold, I am about to die; so of what use then is the birthright to me?"
Genesis 25:33
And Jacob said, "First swear to me"; so he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob.
Genesis 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew; and he ate and drank, and rose and went on his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
Genesis 26:34
When Esau was forty years old he married Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite;
armiyya
19th March 2003, 01:49
This is the story which I was referring to. Was not Jacob, according to the Bible, a dirty conman when it came to sticking it to his brother? However, you are right when you say Esau had already his birthright taken from him before this incident. Looking back at the previous post, I note he sold it to Jacob because he was nearly dying of hunger. But this time jacob lies to trick his father.
Genesis 27:1
Now it came about, when Isaac was old and his eyes were too dim to see, that he called his older son Esau and said to him, "My son." And he said to him, "Here I am."
Genesis 27:2
Isaac said, "Behold now, I am old and I do not know the day of my death.
Genesis 27:3
"Now then, please take your gear, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me;
Genesis 27:4
and prepare a savory dish for me such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat, so that my soul may bless you before I die."
Genesis 27:5
Rebekah was listening while Isaac spoke to his son Esau. So when Esau went to the field to hunt for game to bring home,
Genesis 27:6
Rebekah said to her son Jacob, "Behold, I heard your father speak to your brother Esau, saying,
Genesis 27:7
'Bring me some game and prepare a savory dish for me, that I may eat, and bless you in the presence of the LORD before my death.'
Genesis 27:8
"Now therefore, my son, listen to me as I command you.
Genesis 27:9
"Go now to the flock and bring me two choice young goats from there, that I may prepare them as a savory dish for your father, such as he loves.
Genesis 27:10
"Then you shall bring it to your father, that he may eat, so that he may bless you before his death."
Genesis 27:11
Jacob answered his mother Rebekah, "Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man and I am a smooth man.
Genesis 27:15
Then Rebekah took the best garments of Esau her elder son, which were with her in the house, and put them on Jacob her younger son.
Genesis 27:17
She also gave the savory food and the bread, which she had made, to her son Jacob.
Genesis 27:19
Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau your firstborn; I have done as you told me. Get up, please, sit and eat of my game, that you may bless me."
Genesis 27:21
Then Isaac said to Jacob, "Please come close, that I may feel you, my son, whether you are really my son Esau or not."
Genesis 27:22
So Jacob came close to Isaac his father, and he felt him and said, "The voice is the voice of Jacob, but the hands are the hands of Esau."
Genesis 27:23
He did not recognize him, because his hands were hairy like his brother Esau's hands; so he blessed him.
Genesis 27:24
And he said, "Are you really my son Esau?" And he said, "I am."
Genesis 27:30
Now it came about, as soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, and Jacob had hardly gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.
Genesis 27:32
Isaac his father said to him, "Who are you?" And he said, "I am your son, your firstborn, Esau."
Genesis 27:34
When Esau heard the words of his father, he cried out with an exceedingly great and bitter cry, and said to his father, "Bless me, even me also, O my father!"
Genesis 27:36
Then he said, "Is he not rightly named Jacob, for he has supplanted me these two times? He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing." And he said, "Have you not reserved a blessing for me?"
Genesis 27:37
But Isaac replied to Esau, "Behold, I have made him your master, and all his relatives I have given to him as servants; and with grain and new wine I have sustained him. Now as for you then, what can I do, my son?"
Genesis 27:38
Esau said to his father, "Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father." So Esau lifted his voice and wept.
Edited by - armiyya on 03/18/2003 19:57:35
armiyya
19th March 2003, 01:53
What was Easau's sin?
Was not Jacob, according to the Bible, a dirty conman when it came to sticking it to his brother?
He sold his birthright. He owned Isaac's blessing.
Man isn't supposed to live on bread alone.
Esau didn't commit the serious sin, their decendants did.
The star must refer to David though
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Edomites.html
Jesus and David complement each other.
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