MF
5th January 2006, 05:17
discussion:
Do Women Get 72 Male Virgins In Islam If They Die In Battle?
From: abc729 | Posted: 12/30/2005 2:51:41 PM | Message Detail
Cuz that'd be kinda wierd.
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From: Super Saber Tiger | Posted: 12/30/2005 2:55:17 PM | Message Detail
1 perfect husband supposedly.
Sorry to all the Arab pimpstresses out there ;(
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From: MetalSonic700 | Posted: 12/30/2005 3:06:39 PM | Message Detail
I don't believe in any of that "virgins in heaven" stuff that insurgents pull.
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From: Tsiamon Coldfire | Posted: 12/30/2005 3:26:07 PM | Message Detail
no, women do not get the same treatment as men. I don't think they get anything other than the honor of being a suicidal.......person.
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From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:02:35 PM | Message Detail
Nope. Men get the special treatment in Islam.
Seeing through the history of Islam, the ideological founder's life through the Sirat (Early biography) and the hadith (Traditions of the prophet) as well as how the shar'iah of Islam (Islamic code of the law) is translated today in countries such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, it is a very patriarchal religion. Men are supposedly allowed to have a harem of four women tops, while women are not subject to the same rule.
The muslim women better start wish their vision of heaven at least has an abundance of battery operated toys, or their husbands will prolly just neglect them for the 72 houris.
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From: kmick | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:07:30 PM | Message Detail
I hardly think it would be possible to find 72 male virgins for every female that died in a battle.
Do you realize how many Star Trek conventions you would have to scour to achieve this? *Runs*
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From: Super Maximum Zero | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:08:03 PM | Message Detail
1 perfect husband supposedly.
Sorry to all the Arab pimpstresses out there ;("
That's it? I wonder if any women have died against Islam just to spite that.
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From: H3R3TIK | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:14:43 PM | Message Detail
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:02:35 PM | Message Detail
Men are supposedly allowed to have a harem of four women tops, while women are not subject to the same rule.
The muslim women better start wish their vision of heaven at least has an abundance of battery operated toys, or their husbands will prolly just neglect them for the 72 houris.
I'll probably never get this fact through your head, but no "Islamic" country today practices Islamic law. In fact, most Western countries are more Islamic then said countries.
004.003
SHAKIR: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
As you can see, this refers to charitable purposes. In this case, it was widows who needed support. Women didn't have a very high status in pre-Islamic
Arabia. Widows were treated as less than human. They were not allowed to remarry and had next to no rights. Another reason for polygamy was because of numerous attacks on the Muslim popluation by the Qur'aish (which was the major tribe in Mecca). The male to female ratio became seriously unbalanced because of this. If the opposite had happened, we could expect polyandry in place of polygamy.
003.195
SHAKIR: So their Lord accepted their prayer: That I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female, the one of you being from the other; they, therefore, who fled and were turned out of their homes and persecuted in My way and who fought and were slain, I will most certainly cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.
This is only ONE of the verses in the Qur'an that stresses that God makes no distinctions between males and females. They are equal.
Lastly, the houris. If there is a heaven, it would probably be impossible to describe to the human being. Also, we do not know whether the houris are metaphors, for example, for purity. A virgin is thought of as pure and chaste. Besides, if there was such a thing, women would get these too. (But, IMO, since monogamy is promoted in Islam, the virgin thing wouldn't make much sense)
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From: H3R3TIK | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:30:14 PM | Message Detail
You know what? Forget what I said about polyandry being a viable situation. That wouldn't help the population. (I'm tired, okay?)
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[WoT Imperials] {MFAI} The backbone of surprise is fusing speed with secrecy." - Von Clausewitz
From: I have no name | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:36:18 PM | Message Detail
*woman blows herself up*
"YES! Finally I got to heaven!"
*woman looks around and gets shocked look on face*
"Steve Carell! What are you doing here!?"
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From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:52:27 PM | Message Detail
*tries his hardest not to respond*
*tries so hard*
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: Ganon447 | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:56:09 PM | Message Detail
No, because they most likely will find themselves in Hell seeing even if they are raped by a man in the eyes of Islam and most Muslim clerics it's the womans fault.
So if she is lucky she might get purgatory but then again all these new stories of women getting raped in Islamic countries and then getting blamed for it is false. ;)
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:01:34 PM | Message Detail
The 72 virgins themselves come from Al-Tirmidhi. The amount specified and the sex comes from Tirmidhi himself. No one is obliged to accept his opinion on this. You can, if you want, but last time I checked, a woman's reward is unspecified (if it were mentioned, it would also be symbolic), and men and women are equal in the eyes of god.
I've seen this reaffirmed in the verified Seerah and Hadith.
Islam is patriarchal in the sense that it emphasizes men as the head of the household. No way does this imply inequality though, as assigning different roles doesn't necessarily mean "inequality". But that noway does omit from women working in public and so on.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: Ganon447 | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:02:43 PM | Message Detail
Maybe when I can get over eating pork, I'll finally convert to Islam like I've been telling myself I am going to do for the past seven years.
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:39:33 PM | Message Detail
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/31/2005 3:02:35 AM | Message Detail
Nope. Men get the special treatment in Islam.
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count...
You know, marrige rights, inheritence rights, ban killing females for honor, the right of divorce, must give a women a marrige present, praising several times the mother "heaven lies underneath your mother's feet", a Sura named after females, excusing them from praying while in PMS(sp?), the right to pray inside the Masjid, women being mentioned along men when it comes to reward and punishment, sins and good deeds in the Quran, a female slave carrying a child must be freed when she gives birth etc...
Yup, you know Islamic history...</sarcasm>
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From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:42:00 PM | Message Detail
From: Super Maximum Zero | Posted: 12/31/2005 3:08:03 AM | Message Detail
That's it? I wonder if any women have died against Islam just to spite that.
You forgot the honey & milk flowing rivers, the gold and silver cups, the beatiful dressess, the stud *cough me plz ME!*, them being ultimate figures of beauty, the musk, the fruit, the paradise..
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"The Future lies in the hands of the people who invent it, not whine about it" ~*/SciTech\*~ {MFAI}
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:47:58 PM | Message Detail
Remember, he knows pre-Islamic Persia best. But he made the comment "Throughout Islamic history"...
Now, I've seen people make these comments about Islamic history alot. I mean, a lot of people love to use the Turks and the Mughals as "example Muslims", but if one actually takes time to study the inner workings of these empires, one cannot immediately pass a judgement on what Islam consists of using its history.
I learn a lot of Islamic history through the works of people who have Ph.D's in such subjects.
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From: demetz4386 | Posted: 12/30/2005 10:35:57 PM | Message Detail
abc729
I remember you, you're the one who showed up on PoP asking ridiculous questions and giving absurd answers under different usernames, but were to stupid to change you sigs and quotes to keep it from being obvious. Did you think by coming here instead that your dung-flinging wouldn't turn back and hit you in the face once again?
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Questions about Islam? Ask a Muslim, Board 263 Topic 24613387
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 10:43:43 PM | Message Detail
Dung smells.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: Ganon447 | Posted: 12/30/2005 11:04:25 PM | Message Detail
I always loved the Muslim culture since I was young. From seven on all my close inner circle of friends were Muslim and pretty much seven on I pretty much believed the Jews were evil people and it pretty much gave me an racist ideology at the time. because of what was said.
But I always have shown an interest an the Islamic Culture and always wanted to join. I think 911 set me back a little because I am a Right Winger and in a way I love my country and culture. Over the past couple of years though I realized, Christianity isn’t as powerful in the West or pretty much as strong as is Islam is today in the world.
Islam in my eyes brings the world, order. Islam is basically and hopefully the wave of the future that gives the west back it’s order. Putting women back into their place, brining somewhat peaceful and meaning back into peoples lives. Here in the West, people go to work come home and really have no future but disagree with each other and bring down our civilization more by petty arguing.
In the West children have no real discipline, parents have no control, so many restrictions how is a person to live?
As much as I disagree or dislike the terrorist Islamic Threat to the West in a way, I do hope that the message is spread and we are put into another Dark Age because honestly, that is what we need. We need to slow down our advancement before we kill each other off and reexamine our lives and try to catch up.
From: demetz4386 | Posted: 12/30/2005 11:59:42 PM | Message Detail
O_O
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From: scannerfish | Posted: 12/31/2005 12:54:40 AM | Message Detail
Dude deism pride.
From: scannerfish | Posted: 12/31/2005 1:17:16 AM | Message Detail
I am laughing my *** of at ganon seriously though .
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/31/2005 6:14:27 AM | Message Detail
:::QUOTE:::
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count...
::::::::::::::::
Now, I don't follow you. Islam contributed the most to women's rights? Is that what you actually are claiming right now? It can't be anything else. Islam may have banned the barbaric practice of burying unwanted girls alive, yet it offered nothing to their conquered subjects. Persia? Persia was several light years ahead of the Islamic "civilization" when it came to human rights, and even so their predecessors were much superior.
Compare the Qur'an with the Achaemenian Charter of Cyrus The Great and see for yourself. What woman in the Islamic civilization enjoyed more rights than the common Achaemenian, Arsacid or Sassanian female? Even during the much patriarchal Sassanid dynasty, Ęrân was twice ruled by queens, having several female officers in the army. Many royal scribes and advisors were female.
Islam contributed as much to female rights as a peeled chestnut, soaked in horse urine contributes to a respected chef's kitchen. In this case Persia.
:::QUOTE:::
Remember, he knows pre-Islamic Persia best. But he made the comment "Throughout Islamic history"...
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Yes, I said "throughout islamic history", and many, including me, thinks that the Abbasid caliphate marks the golden age of the Bilad-al Islam. History is the best method to showcase the flaws of previously common laws. The rest, post-Abbasid is degenerate once the Turks of Transoxiana and Caucasus reaffirmed their position within the core domains of the caliphate. That is common knowledge. After the Abbasid caliphate, the islamic state is put into a resilient decline.
When I said "throughout Islamic history" it could only mean that I had to compare with the peaking times of the islamic state, else the statement would hold no water.
Note that ths will be my last reply to the topic for today. I have a party to arrange, and at best I'll answer eventual replies tomorrow.
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From: theyllblong2MEalways | Posted: 12/31/2005 6:39:47 AM | Message Detail
^
Knowledge.
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[Evil Republican]However, I think theyllblong2MEalways has Commando beat in the mass hatred department. Machiave11i
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:11:21 AM | Message Detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
From: NindramonOmega | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:17:14 AM | Message Detail
Did you guys know that the first frickin scholar in Islam after Muhammad was a woman.
As for rewards, Allah only gave a few examples of Paradise. Meaning there is much more than describes.
Besides, women get thousands of angel servant boys at their command >_>
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From: theyllblong2MEalways | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:17:54 AM | Message Detail
Fanboy eh?
Na, although I do respect him...
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[Evil Republican]However, I think theyllblong2MEalways has Commando beat in the mass hatred department. Machiave11i
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:18:12 AM | Message Detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:19:37 AM | Message Detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:45:54 AM | Message Detail
I will edit my post to remove that unnecassary offense theyllblong2MEalways.
Now, I don't follow you. Islam contributed the most to women's rights? Is that what you actually are claiming right now? It can't be anything else. Islam may have banned the barbaric practice of burying unwanted girls alive, yet it offered nothing to their conquered subjects.
Yes. And I'm not claiming it now, I'v always believed so. I do not know much about persia's status on women before Islam, so I wont make the comparsion in this topic that I don't know enough about, and I'm not going to claim knowledge in a field I know nothing about, unlike somone we all know here. However, my post's main point was not about who contributed most to women rights, it was about replying to your accusation that Islam didn't give women any special treatment.
Islam contributed as much to female rights as a peeled chestnut, soaked in horse urine contributes to a respected chef's kitchen. In this case Persia.
Now I don't get you, you take a few misconceptions on the prophets life and you call us apoligsts, call him the devil, the charlatan and the murderer, yet, when I show you he endorsed human rights and waged a successful war against immorality and demonizing or what I prefer to call, baggaging women, you downplay it to the point "yeah, but" or "he may have". Which makes me wonder again what kind of scale are you using when balancing arguments..
And by looking at the your last sentnece, I'm clearly questioning your judgment. If you call baning the slaying if childern & females in order to avoid poverty or "shame" chestnut soaked in urine, if you call their right for marrige, divorce, inheritence, their rights on their usbands to spend and feed them and provide them and the childern on their daily needs and respecting their own wealth, evalating a mothers status to the point of saying heaven lies beneath her feet, puting her respect over the father three times, all this and more horse urine, then its one of the two things, your either sexist, or blind to the extent you can no longer see good in other cultures or religons except the one you endorse, and in this case, a major civil rights reforms for women.
I like Cyrus and I personally think he is one of the greatest men in history and I am starting to look at him more as a rolemodel, yet the way you are using him to make every other culture sound inferior is sad.
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"The Future lies in the hands of the people who invent it, not whine about it" ~*/SciTech\*~ {MFAI}
From: theyllblong2MEalways | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:50:44 AM | Message Detail
Oh, to be honest, I didn't even see it and it doesn't bother me.
Different opinions my friend, it's all in good fun.
You both make some good points, and you both know lots about the subject.
So Kudos to both of yall.
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[Evil Republican]However, I think theyllblong2MEalways has Commando beat in the mass hatred department. Machiave11i
From: MaJiN SaMWiSE | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:17:04 AM | Message Detail
Kid Einstien you will come to know the truth. So mock our prophet away. It may seem that you have knowledge by inserting a bunch of historical phrases but you really dont know anything about Islam. Your pathetic persian nationalism has always blinded you from the truth. Yes women get virgins too, Hourieen from my understanding is the opposite of your sex. Like I said in the other topic, Your wife/husband will be the most beatiful TO YOU in paradise. More beatiful then the hourieen (virgins). Kid Einstein just slanders without knowledge.
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From: scannerfish | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:18:25 AM | Message Detail
I don't think he cares cause he considers religion fullish , which is kinda of the boat I'm in , except more like I'm in the water between the religion boat and non-religion boat.
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:22:34 AM | Message Detail
Kid Einstien you will come to know the truth. So mock our prophet away. It may seem that you have knowledge by inserting a bunch of historical phrases but you really dont know anything about Islam. Your pathetic persian nationalism has always blinded you from the truth. Yes women get virgins too, Hourieen from my understanding is the opposite of your sex. Like I said in the other topic, Your wife/husband will be the most beatiful TO YOU in paradise. More beatiful then the hourieen (virgins). Kid Einstein just slanders without knowledge.
Shh.... don't inflame him. He gets stuff like this all the time.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: spartan1311 | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:54:09 AM | Message Detail
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:39:33 PM | Message Detail
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count...
lmao.
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From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:15:09 PM | Message Detail
:::QUOTE:::
I like Cyrus and I personally think he is one of the greatest men in history and I am starting to look at him more as a rolemodel, yet the way you are using him to make every other culture sound inferior is sad.
::::::::::::::::
Do you know what I find incredibly sad? When people find the need to construct pesky strawmen to present an argument that otherwise wouldn't hold any water. See the bolded segment? Good doggy. Until the next time you decide to spoonfeed words into another individual's mouths... Don't do it.
It seems that everyone else, except for the apologists of Islam have grasped my open acknowledge of the inherent flaws of all three great Iranic dyasties. Of course, you might as well as play dumb all day while tapping your ears with your palms and make infantile noises, you'd prolly continue to accuse me for thinking that I'm using Cyrus to downplay everyone else. Think again. I'm using Cyrus for one single purpose and that is to downplay Islam's "sinless" prophet, Mohammed Ibn Abd'allah.
:::QUOTE:::
Yes. And I'm not claiming it now, I'v always believed so. I do not know much about persia's status on women before Islam, so I wont make the comparsion in this topic that I don't know enough about, and I'm not going to claim knowledge in a field I know nothing about, unlike somone we all know here. However, my post's main point was not about who contributed most to women rights, it was about replying to your accusation that Islam didn't give women any special treatment.
:::::::::::::
I won't comment your petty insult, it would be below my stature.
As for your reply in general, you did reply in this manner:
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count..
The only Arab tribe who engaged in the barbaric practice of burying their daughters alive were the Quraish. The Ansari came to be from various other Arab tribes, amongst them the Ghassanids the Northern Abyssinian Arab tribes, and eventually even the Lakhmid Arab tribes in the Khvârvarân province of Ęrân, after the battle of Anbar (Or the battle of the Eyes as it also is called) and siege of Al-Hirah, where many Lakhmids were forced to serve against their masters. The Lakhmid did not engage in these barbaric practices of alive burial of unwanted girls. They were much thanks to the grain surpluses of Mesopotamia wealthy under Persian vassalage. They followed central laws. Even Lakhmid females attained very influential positions. The Islamic code of law offered this Arab tribe nothing new.
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From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:15:23 PM | Message Detail
Islam being a patriarchal religion is nothing new. Is there even a thing as a female imam? The witness of a woman is worth the half of a man's witness, according to Mohammed, because of the females inferior intellect:
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"Muhammad said: ‘I have seen that you, in spite of being deficient in mind and religion, rob even a wise man of his senses.’ They said: ‘Allah’s messenger, where lies our deficiency of reason and faith?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence (testimony) of a woman equal to half the evidence of a man?’ They said: ‘Yes.’ He said: ‘This is because of the deficiency of your minds (mental status). Is it not a fact that when you enter the period of menses, you neither observe prayer nor observe fast?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then he said: ‘This is the deficiency in your faith."
=========================================
It is also common knowledge that a female inherits half of a male's portion. This is stated in Surah 4: 176
I can bring up so many other things, but this will suffice for now. If there ever was a doubt that islam is a patriarchal religion, then hopefully, the fact that Mohammed openly stated that the female intellect is inferior, carries an inferior value as a witness, as well as the Qur'an clearly states that the inheritance for woman is worth the half of a male's portion, should clear all these doubts.
:::QUOTE:::
your either sexist, or blind to the extent you can no longer see good in other cultures or religons except the one you endorse, and in this case, a major civil rights reforms for women.
:::::::::::::::
I see that you are quite keen on shoving words into other peoples' mouths. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Of course, you'd pretend that you've never visited the history forums where I've openly praised the Roman architecture, superior to anything else in the world at the time, as well as their military apparatus, derived from the finest of hellenic traditions, resulting in the legion cohorts, as it was the finest regimentalized infantry at the time. Of course, you can by all means continue to spoonfeed those yummy words into my mouth, if you enjoy being percieved as a buffoon.
Let me fix another thing for you:
your either sexist, or blind to the extent you can no longer see good in other cultures or religons except the one you endorse, and in this case, a major civil rights reforms for Quraishi women.
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From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:39:17 PM | Message Detail
"Muhammad said: ‘I have seen that you, in spite of being deficient in mind and religion, rob even a wise man of his senses.’ They said: ‘Allah’s messenger, where lies our deficiency of reason and faith?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence (testimony) of a woman equal to half the evidence of a man?’ They said: ‘Yes.’ He said: ‘This is because of the deficiency of your minds (mental status). Is it not a fact that when you enter the period of menses, you neither observe prayer nor observe fast?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then he said: ‘This is the deficiency in your faith."
I'm going to assume this is Sahih, so I won't go through the normal questioning process.
But I have one question. Who were the addressees of this hadith? Which women were he addressing, and why did he said this? A narration is often triggered by certain circumstances. Who said this was applicable to ALL women? The prophet (pbuh) was making a point in this hadith. And unless you can provide the answer to these questions, I'll have to provide it.
Let's see if you know what you're talking about, and let's put your methodology of ilm-ul-hadith to the test.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:40:39 PM | Message Detail
I'll address the half-testimony thing, because it is often misread. I'll bring this up later on. But I just want you to answer these questions.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
Do Women Get 72 Male Virgins In Islam If They Die In Battle?
From: abc729 | Posted: 12/30/2005 2:51:41 PM | Message Detail
Cuz that'd be kinda wierd.
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From: Super Saber Tiger | Posted: 12/30/2005 2:55:17 PM | Message Detail
1 perfect husband supposedly.
Sorry to all the Arab pimpstresses out there ;(
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From: MetalSonic700 | Posted: 12/30/2005 3:06:39 PM | Message Detail
I don't believe in any of that "virgins in heaven" stuff that insurgents pull.
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I do not EAT BABIES!
From: Tsiamon Coldfire | Posted: 12/30/2005 3:26:07 PM | Message Detail
no, women do not get the same treatment as men. I don't think they get anything other than the honor of being a suicidal.......person.
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From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:02:35 PM | Message Detail
Nope. Men get the special treatment in Islam.
Seeing through the history of Islam, the ideological founder's life through the Sirat (Early biography) and the hadith (Traditions of the prophet) as well as how the shar'iah of Islam (Islamic code of the law) is translated today in countries such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, it is a very patriarchal religion. Men are supposedly allowed to have a harem of four women tops, while women are not subject to the same rule.
The muslim women better start wish their vision of heaven at least has an abundance of battery operated toys, or their husbands will prolly just neglect them for the 72 houris.
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From: kmick | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:07:30 PM | Message Detail
I hardly think it would be possible to find 72 male virgins for every female that died in a battle.
Do you realize how many Star Trek conventions you would have to scour to achieve this? *Runs*
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From: Super Maximum Zero | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:08:03 PM | Message Detail
1 perfect husband supposedly.
Sorry to all the Arab pimpstresses out there ;("
That's it? I wonder if any women have died against Islam just to spite that.
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From: H3R3TIK | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:14:43 PM | Message Detail
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/30/2005 4:02:35 PM | Message Detail
Men are supposedly allowed to have a harem of four women tops, while women are not subject to the same rule.
The muslim women better start wish their vision of heaven at least has an abundance of battery operated toys, or their husbands will prolly just neglect them for the 72 houris.
I'll probably never get this fact through your head, but no "Islamic" country today practices Islamic law. In fact, most Western countries are more Islamic then said countries.
004.003
SHAKIR: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
As you can see, this refers to charitable purposes. In this case, it was widows who needed support. Women didn't have a very high status in pre-Islamic
Arabia. Widows were treated as less than human. They were not allowed to remarry and had next to no rights. Another reason for polygamy was because of numerous attacks on the Muslim popluation by the Qur'aish (which was the major tribe in Mecca). The male to female ratio became seriously unbalanced because of this. If the opposite had happened, we could expect polyandry in place of polygamy.
003.195
SHAKIR: So their Lord accepted their prayer: That I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female, the one of you being from the other; they, therefore, who fled and were turned out of their homes and persecuted in My way and who fought and were slain, I will most certainly cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.
This is only ONE of the verses in the Qur'an that stresses that God makes no distinctions between males and females. They are equal.
Lastly, the houris. If there is a heaven, it would probably be impossible to describe to the human being. Also, we do not know whether the houris are metaphors, for example, for purity. A virgin is thought of as pure and chaste. Besides, if there was such a thing, women would get these too. (But, IMO, since monogamy is promoted in Islam, the virgin thing wouldn't make much sense)
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[WoT Imperials] {MFAI} The backbone of surprise is fusing speed with secrecy." - Von Clausewitz
From: H3R3TIK | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:30:14 PM | Message Detail
You know what? Forget what I said about polyandry being a viable situation. That wouldn't help the population. (I'm tired, okay?)
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[WoT Imperials] {MFAI} The backbone of surprise is fusing speed with secrecy." - Von Clausewitz
From: I have no name | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:36:18 PM | Message Detail
*woman blows herself up*
"YES! Finally I got to heaven!"
*woman looks around and gets shocked look on face*
"Steve Carell! What are you doing here!?"
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Hey, I have no name, I wanna get sigged, too!-goatsmilk
GREATEST. VIDEO. EVER. http://www.big-boys.com/articles/crazypenquin.html
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:52:27 PM | Message Detail
*tries his hardest not to respond*
*tries so hard*
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: Ganon447 | Posted: 12/30/2005 8:56:09 PM | Message Detail
No, because they most likely will find themselves in Hell seeing even if they are raped by a man in the eyes of Islam and most Muslim clerics it's the womans fault.
So if she is lucky she might get purgatory but then again all these new stories of women getting raped in Islamic countries and then getting blamed for it is false. ;)
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:01:34 PM | Message Detail
The 72 virgins themselves come from Al-Tirmidhi. The amount specified and the sex comes from Tirmidhi himself. No one is obliged to accept his opinion on this. You can, if you want, but last time I checked, a woman's reward is unspecified (if it were mentioned, it would also be symbolic), and men and women are equal in the eyes of god.
I've seen this reaffirmed in the verified Seerah and Hadith.
Islam is patriarchal in the sense that it emphasizes men as the head of the household. No way does this imply inequality though, as assigning different roles doesn't necessarily mean "inequality". But that noway does omit from women working in public and so on.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: Ganon447 | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:02:43 PM | Message Detail
Maybe when I can get over eating pork, I'll finally convert to Islam like I've been telling myself I am going to do for the past seven years.
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:39:33 PM | Message Detail
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/31/2005 3:02:35 AM | Message Detail
Nope. Men get the special treatment in Islam.
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count...
You know, marrige rights, inheritence rights, ban killing females for honor, the right of divorce, must give a women a marrige present, praising several times the mother "heaven lies underneath your mother's feet", a Sura named after females, excusing them from praying while in PMS(sp?), the right to pray inside the Masjid, women being mentioned along men when it comes to reward and punishment, sins and good deeds in the Quran, a female slave carrying a child must be freed when she gives birth etc...
Yup, you know Islamic history...</sarcasm>
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"The Future lies in the hands of the people who invent it, not whine about it" ~*/SciTech\*~ {MFAI}
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:42:00 PM | Message Detail
From: Super Maximum Zero | Posted: 12/31/2005 3:08:03 AM | Message Detail
That's it? I wonder if any women have died against Islam just to spite that.
You forgot the honey & milk flowing rivers, the gold and silver cups, the beatiful dressess, the stud *cough me plz ME!*, them being ultimate figures of beauty, the musk, the fruit, the paradise..
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"The Future lies in the hands of the people who invent it, not whine about it" ~*/SciTech\*~ {MFAI}
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:47:58 PM | Message Detail
Remember, he knows pre-Islamic Persia best. But he made the comment "Throughout Islamic history"...
Now, I've seen people make these comments about Islamic history alot. I mean, a lot of people love to use the Turks and the Mughals as "example Muslims", but if one actually takes time to study the inner workings of these empires, one cannot immediately pass a judgement on what Islam consists of using its history.
I learn a lot of Islamic history through the works of people who have Ph.D's in such subjects.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: demetz4386 | Posted: 12/30/2005 10:35:57 PM | Message Detail
abc729
I remember you, you're the one who showed up on PoP asking ridiculous questions and giving absurd answers under different usernames, but were to stupid to change you sigs and quotes to keep it from being obvious. Did you think by coming here instead that your dung-flinging wouldn't turn back and hit you in the face once again?
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{MFAI- Major Contributor, FAQ answered: 2, 14, 15a, 16, 18, 19, 20, 28, 46}
Questions about Islam? Ask a Muslim, Board 263 Topic 24613387
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/30/2005 10:43:43 PM | Message Detail
Dung smells.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: Ganon447 | Posted: 12/30/2005 11:04:25 PM | Message Detail
I always loved the Muslim culture since I was young. From seven on all my close inner circle of friends were Muslim and pretty much seven on I pretty much believed the Jews were evil people and it pretty much gave me an racist ideology at the time. because of what was said.
But I always have shown an interest an the Islamic Culture and always wanted to join. I think 911 set me back a little because I am a Right Winger and in a way I love my country and culture. Over the past couple of years though I realized, Christianity isn’t as powerful in the West or pretty much as strong as is Islam is today in the world.
Islam in my eyes brings the world, order. Islam is basically and hopefully the wave of the future that gives the west back it’s order. Putting women back into their place, brining somewhat peaceful and meaning back into peoples lives. Here in the West, people go to work come home and really have no future but disagree with each other and bring down our civilization more by petty arguing.
In the West children have no real discipline, parents have no control, so many restrictions how is a person to live?
As much as I disagree or dislike the terrorist Islamic Threat to the West in a way, I do hope that the message is spread and we are put into another Dark Age because honestly, that is what we need. We need to slow down our advancement before we kill each other off and reexamine our lives and try to catch up.
From: demetz4386 | Posted: 12/30/2005 11:59:42 PM | Message Detail
O_O
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{MFAI- Major Contributor, FAQ answered: 2, 14, 15a, 16, 18, 19, 20, 28, 46}
Questions about Islam? Ask a Muslim, Board 263 Topic 24613387
From: scannerfish | Posted: 12/31/2005 12:54:40 AM | Message Detail
Dude deism pride.
From: scannerfish | Posted: 12/31/2005 1:17:16 AM | Message Detail
I am laughing my *** of at ganon seriously though .
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 12/31/2005 6:14:27 AM | Message Detail
:::QUOTE:::
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count...
::::::::::::::::
Now, I don't follow you. Islam contributed the most to women's rights? Is that what you actually are claiming right now? It can't be anything else. Islam may have banned the barbaric practice of burying unwanted girls alive, yet it offered nothing to their conquered subjects. Persia? Persia was several light years ahead of the Islamic "civilization" when it came to human rights, and even so their predecessors were much superior.
Compare the Qur'an with the Achaemenian Charter of Cyrus The Great and see for yourself. What woman in the Islamic civilization enjoyed more rights than the common Achaemenian, Arsacid or Sassanian female? Even during the much patriarchal Sassanid dynasty, Ęrân was twice ruled by queens, having several female officers in the army. Many royal scribes and advisors were female.
Islam contributed as much to female rights as a peeled chestnut, soaked in horse urine contributes to a respected chef's kitchen. In this case Persia.
:::QUOTE:::
Remember, he knows pre-Islamic Persia best. But he made the comment "Throughout Islamic history"...
:::::::::::::::
Yes, I said "throughout islamic history", and many, including me, thinks that the Abbasid caliphate marks the golden age of the Bilad-al Islam. History is the best method to showcase the flaws of previously common laws. The rest, post-Abbasid is degenerate once the Turks of Transoxiana and Caucasus reaffirmed their position within the core domains of the caliphate. That is common knowledge. After the Abbasid caliphate, the islamic state is put into a resilient decline.
When I said "throughout Islamic history" it could only mean that I had to compare with the peaking times of the islamic state, else the statement would hold no water.
Note that ths will be my last reply to the topic for today. I have a party to arrange, and at best I'll answer eventual replies tomorrow.
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Body Harvest! The game of all games! The unknown champion! The meaning of Life! The game God enjoyed! The game I enjoyed! www.avidgamers.com/bodyharvest
From: theyllblong2MEalways | Posted: 12/31/2005 6:39:47 AM | Message Detail
^
Knowledge.
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[Evil Republican]However, I think theyllblong2MEalways has Commando beat in the mass hatred department. Machiave11i
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:11:21 AM | Message Detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
From: NindramonOmega | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:17:14 AM | Message Detail
Did you guys know that the first frickin scholar in Islam after Muhammad was a woman.
As for rewards, Allah only gave a few examples of Paradise. Meaning there is much more than describes.
Besides, women get thousands of angel servant boys at their command >_>
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Vin Diesel invented consequences.
From: theyllblong2MEalways | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:17:54 AM | Message Detail
Fanboy eh?
Na, although I do respect him...
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[Evil Republican]However, I think theyllblong2MEalways has Commando beat in the mass hatred department. Machiave11i
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:18:12 AM | Message Detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:19:37 AM | Message Detail
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:45:54 AM | Message Detail
I will edit my post to remove that unnecassary offense theyllblong2MEalways.
Now, I don't follow you. Islam contributed the most to women's rights? Is that what you actually are claiming right now? It can't be anything else. Islam may have banned the barbaric practice of burying unwanted girls alive, yet it offered nothing to their conquered subjects.
Yes. And I'm not claiming it now, I'v always believed so. I do not know much about persia's status on women before Islam, so I wont make the comparsion in this topic that I don't know enough about, and I'm not going to claim knowledge in a field I know nothing about, unlike somone we all know here. However, my post's main point was not about who contributed most to women rights, it was about replying to your accusation that Islam didn't give women any special treatment.
Islam contributed as much to female rights as a peeled chestnut, soaked in horse urine contributes to a respected chef's kitchen. In this case Persia.
Now I don't get you, you take a few misconceptions on the prophets life and you call us apoligsts, call him the devil, the charlatan and the murderer, yet, when I show you he endorsed human rights and waged a successful war against immorality and demonizing or what I prefer to call, baggaging women, you downplay it to the point "yeah, but" or "he may have". Which makes me wonder again what kind of scale are you using when balancing arguments..
And by looking at the your last sentnece, I'm clearly questioning your judgment. If you call baning the slaying if childern & females in order to avoid poverty or "shame" chestnut soaked in urine, if you call their right for marrige, divorce, inheritence, their rights on their usbands to spend and feed them and provide them and the childern on their daily needs and respecting their own wealth, evalating a mothers status to the point of saying heaven lies beneath her feet, puting her respect over the father three times, all this and more horse urine, then its one of the two things, your either sexist, or blind to the extent you can no longer see good in other cultures or religons except the one you endorse, and in this case, a major civil rights reforms for women.
I like Cyrus and I personally think he is one of the greatest men in history and I am starting to look at him more as a rolemodel, yet the way you are using him to make every other culture sound inferior is sad.
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"The Future lies in the hands of the people who invent it, not whine about it" ~*/SciTech\*~ {MFAI}
From: theyllblong2MEalways | Posted: 12/31/2005 7:50:44 AM | Message Detail
Oh, to be honest, I didn't even see it and it doesn't bother me.
Different opinions my friend, it's all in good fun.
You both make some good points, and you both know lots about the subject.
So Kudos to both of yall.
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[Evil Republican]However, I think theyllblong2MEalways has Commando beat in the mass hatred department. Machiave11i
From: MaJiN SaMWiSE | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:17:04 AM | Message Detail
Kid Einstien you will come to know the truth. So mock our prophet away. It may seem that you have knowledge by inserting a bunch of historical phrases but you really dont know anything about Islam. Your pathetic persian nationalism has always blinded you from the truth. Yes women get virgins too, Hourieen from my understanding is the opposite of your sex. Like I said in the other topic, Your wife/husband will be the most beatiful TO YOU in paradise. More beatiful then the hourieen (virgins). Kid Einstein just slanders without knowledge.
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[=[_]=] ~Nintendo DS Abuser ~Islamic Board Below [+[_]::]http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=563727
From: scannerfish | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:18:25 AM | Message Detail
I don't think he cares cause he considers religion fullish , which is kinda of the boat I'm in , except more like I'm in the water between the religion boat and non-religion boat.
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:22:34 AM | Message Detail
Kid Einstien you will come to know the truth. So mock our prophet away. It may seem that you have knowledge by inserting a bunch of historical phrases but you really dont know anything about Islam. Your pathetic persian nationalism has always blinded you from the truth. Yes women get virgins too, Hourieen from my understanding is the opposite of your sex. Like I said in the other topic, Your wife/husband will be the most beatiful TO YOU in paradise. More beatiful then the hourieen (virgins). Kid Einstein just slanders without knowledge.
Shh.... don't inflame him. He gets stuff like this all the time.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: spartan1311 | Posted: 12/31/2005 10:54:09 AM | Message Detail
From: X5Dragon | Posted: 12/30/2005 9:39:33 PM | Message Detail
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count...
lmao.
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thelonelyisland.com
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:15:09 PM | Message Detail
:::QUOTE:::
I like Cyrus and I personally think he is one of the greatest men in history and I am starting to look at him more as a rolemodel, yet the way you are using him to make every other culture sound inferior is sad.
::::::::::::::::
Do you know what I find incredibly sad? When people find the need to construct pesky strawmen to present an argument that otherwise wouldn't hold any water. See the bolded segment? Good doggy. Until the next time you decide to spoonfeed words into another individual's mouths... Don't do it.
It seems that everyone else, except for the apologists of Islam have grasped my open acknowledge of the inherent flaws of all three great Iranic dyasties. Of course, you might as well as play dumb all day while tapping your ears with your palms and make infantile noises, you'd prolly continue to accuse me for thinking that I'm using Cyrus to downplay everyone else. Think again. I'm using Cyrus for one single purpose and that is to downplay Islam's "sinless" prophet, Mohammed Ibn Abd'allah.
:::QUOTE:::
Yes. And I'm not claiming it now, I'v always believed so. I do not know much about persia's status on women before Islam, so I wont make the comparsion in this topic that I don't know enough about, and I'm not going to claim knowledge in a field I know nothing about, unlike somone we all know here. However, my post's main point was not about who contributed most to women rights, it was about replying to your accusation that Islam didn't give women any special treatment.
:::::::::::::
I won't comment your petty insult, it would be below my stature.
As for your reply in general, you did reply in this manner:
Right, so I guess contributing the most to women rights doesn't count..
The only Arab tribe who engaged in the barbaric practice of burying their daughters alive were the Quraish. The Ansari came to be from various other Arab tribes, amongst them the Ghassanids the Northern Abyssinian Arab tribes, and eventually even the Lakhmid Arab tribes in the Khvârvarân province of Ęrân, after the battle of Anbar (Or the battle of the Eyes as it also is called) and siege of Al-Hirah, where many Lakhmids were forced to serve against their masters. The Lakhmid did not engage in these barbaric practices of alive burial of unwanted girls. They were much thanks to the grain surpluses of Mesopotamia wealthy under Persian vassalage. They followed central laws. Even Lakhmid females attained very influential positions. The Islamic code of law offered this Arab tribe nothing new.
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Body Harvest! The game of all games! The unknown champion! The meaning of Life! The game God enjoyed! The game I enjoyed! www.avidgamers.com/bodyharvest
From: Kid Einstein | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:15:23 PM | Message Detail
Islam being a patriarchal religion is nothing new. Is there even a thing as a female imam? The witness of a woman is worth the half of a man's witness, according to Mohammed, because of the females inferior intellect:
=========================================
"Muhammad said: ‘I have seen that you, in spite of being deficient in mind and religion, rob even a wise man of his senses.’ They said: ‘Allah’s messenger, where lies our deficiency of reason and faith?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence (testimony) of a woman equal to half the evidence of a man?’ They said: ‘Yes.’ He said: ‘This is because of the deficiency of your minds (mental status). Is it not a fact that when you enter the period of menses, you neither observe prayer nor observe fast?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then he said: ‘This is the deficiency in your faith."
=========================================
It is also common knowledge that a female inherits half of a male's portion. This is stated in Surah 4: 176
I can bring up so many other things, but this will suffice for now. If there ever was a doubt that islam is a patriarchal religion, then hopefully, the fact that Mohammed openly stated that the female intellect is inferior, carries an inferior value as a witness, as well as the Qur'an clearly states that the inheritance for woman is worth the half of a male's portion, should clear all these doubts.
:::QUOTE:::
your either sexist, or blind to the extent you can no longer see good in other cultures or religons except the one you endorse, and in this case, a major civil rights reforms for women.
:::::::::::::::
I see that you are quite keen on shoving words into other peoples' mouths. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Of course, you'd pretend that you've never visited the history forums where I've openly praised the Roman architecture, superior to anything else in the world at the time, as well as their military apparatus, derived from the finest of hellenic traditions, resulting in the legion cohorts, as it was the finest regimentalized infantry at the time. Of course, you can by all means continue to spoonfeed those yummy words into my mouth, if you enjoy being percieved as a buffoon.
Let me fix another thing for you:
your either sexist, or blind to the extent you can no longer see good in other cultures or religons except the one you endorse, and in this case, a major civil rights reforms for Quraishi women.
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Body Harvest! The game of all games! The unknown champion! The meaning of Life! The game God enjoyed! The game I enjoyed! www.avidgamers.com/bodyharvest
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:39:17 PM | Message Detail
"Muhammad said: ‘I have seen that you, in spite of being deficient in mind and religion, rob even a wise man of his senses.’ They said: ‘Allah’s messenger, where lies our deficiency of reason and faith?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence (testimony) of a woman equal to half the evidence of a man?’ They said: ‘Yes.’ He said: ‘This is because of the deficiency of your minds (mental status). Is it not a fact that when you enter the period of menses, you neither observe prayer nor observe fast?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then he said: ‘This is the deficiency in your faith."
I'm going to assume this is Sahih, so I won't go through the normal questioning process.
But I have one question. Who were the addressees of this hadith? Which women were he addressing, and why did he said this? A narration is often triggered by certain circumstances. Who said this was applicable to ALL women? The prophet (pbuh) was making a point in this hadith. And unless you can provide the answer to these questions, I'll have to provide it.
Let's see if you know what you're talking about, and let's put your methodology of ilm-ul-hadith to the test.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam
From: The Stealth Fox | Posted: 1/1/2006 3:40:39 PM | Message Detail
I'll address the half-testimony thing, because it is often misread. I'll bring this up later on. But I just want you to answer these questions.
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{MFAI} - Mujahideen For the Awareness of Islam