Present Quran?

[Fatah-Momin]

I have raised this issue on this board and on many shia boards, due to lack of time was not able to follow through, to my dispointment none of the shia have ever been able to present me with a irrefutable argument. As I see this board has an active board disscussing shia beliefs, I will put forth my question here, may we have an scholar among the esteem members of this board who is able to provied answer to this question.

According to shia beliefs the first three Khalifs[ra] turned apostate [naouzobillah] upon the death of the Nabi Allah[saw], to further cement this belief, the first act of Imam Mahdi[as] when he come out of acultation will be to pull the bodies of the first two khalif from the graves and drag them through the streets and then whip them for userping the right of the first Imam[ra].

Hz. Abu Bakr[ra]: Compiled the Quran in book form.
Hz. Umar [ra]: Advised him to do so.
Hz. Uthman[ra]: Standardized the dialect of the Arabic used in Quran

According to shia beliefs all the above acts are innovations and shia do not believe in any innovation in deen after the death of the Nabi Allah[saw].
Keeping this in mind please answer the question.

Q: Do shia believe in present Quran? If shia do please provied proof.
Q: Do shia believe Quran to be the last and final testament[revelation] of Allah?

[ilyas]

Salaam Fatah-Momin

Just to let you know that theres hardly any shias on this forum

[Fatah-Momin]

Asalaam Alikum

Jazzakallah brother, will wait anyways to see if any one shows up to answer these questions. If not then we will leave it for another day.

[BOY-NICE]

According to shia beliefs the first three Khalifs[ra] turned apostate [naouzobillah] upon the death of the Nabi Allah[saw], to further cement this belief, the first act of Imam Mahdi[as] when he come out of acultation will be to pull the bodies of the first two khalif from the graves and drag them through the streets and then whip them for userping the right of the first Imam[ra].

Shia "doesnt" hold the belief that three caliph turn Murtid/apostates rather Shia believe that didnt follow Ahlulbait [as] while they shud have. Also the belief which you pointed out about Imam Mahdi [as]'s stance isnt by consensus. Mere having such statements in a book doesnt make them authentic.



Keeping this in mind please answer the question.

Q: Do shia believe in present Quran? If shia do please provied proof.
Q: Do shia believe Quran to be the last and final testament[revelation] of Allah?

A: Yes they do. For proof please check the thread just below this one where the topic has recently been discussed.
B: Certainly. Since there isnt any Prophet after Muhammad [pbuh & HH) therefore there isnt any book also.

I hope anything which have recently been discussed wont be repeated or will be asked to be repeated here as it takes lots of time to have a one thread/topic.

[sobz]

Dear Brothers,

When our prophet (pbuh) started preaching Islam, kuffaar threw stones at him... thinking that they will disgrace him on streets. They tried everything but Allah knows they could do nothing...

Similar thought prevails in who-so-ever thinks will happen to the caliph(s)...

Rest assured that the personalities under discussion are of an individual about whom th prophet once said 'I have returned favours to all except for Abu Bakr, may Allah give him the rewards' & the other individual for whom the Prophet prayed to Allah for allaince to Islam.

Regards,

Soheeb

[Ashhad4u]

Brother Boy - nice.

A: Yes they do. For proof please check the thread just below this one where the topic has recently been discussed.

Dun u think that it is the part of 'TAQIAH' to beleive in present Quran ????



B: Certainly. Since there isnt any Prophet after Muhammad [pbuh & HH) therefore there isnt any book also.
& wat is the Status of Imam after Prophet PBUH ???
i m talking about 'MASOOMEEN' , 'SINLESS' etc etc !

[Aasem]

Assalam-o-Alaikum


According to shia beliefs the first three Khalifs[ra] turned apostate [naouzobillah] upon the death of the Nabi Allah[saw], to further cement this belief, the first act of Imam Mahdi[as] when he come out of acultation will be to pull the bodies of the first two khalif from the graves and drag them through the streets and then whip them for userping the right of the first Imam[ra].

Can you please cite which shia book presents this belief.

wassalam
-Aasem

[Ashhad4u]

BRother Asem

Book #1 - Usol e Kafi
Book #2 - Furu e Kafi
Book #3 - 14-Sitaray

etc etc etc...

[Aasem]

Assalam-o-Alaikum Ashhad4u

Thank you for sharing that important piece of information. It is very important to find the exact statement of Shiite sources before commenting upon the authencity of ascribing this belief to them.

Here is an online version of Al-Kafi. Please highlight which book contains the referred text.

Kitab-al-Kafi (http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/index.htm)

Jazak Allah once again.

wasslam
-Aasem

[BOY-NICE]

Dun u think that it is the part of 'TAQIAH' to beleive in present Quran ????

Question doesnt make any sense. Whats the relation of Taqiyah with the belief in present Quran :comma:


& wat is the Status of Imam after Prophet PBUH ???
i m talking about 'MASOOMEEN' , 'SINLESS' etc etc !

I dont think this thread is related with these topics but still... the status of Imams after Holy Prophet [s] is of the successors and the guides and since they are devinely appointed guides over the religion of Islam hence they are sinners i.e Masomeen. Simple is that.

[Nadeem]

the status of Imams after Holy Prophet [s] is of the successors and the guides and since they are devinely appointed guides over the religion of Islam hence they are sinners i.e Masomeen. Simple is that.

Salaam,

I think you meant to say that they are sinless(in your beliefs) rather than sinners.:cool: :)

I would just like to ask why the shia books contain many unauthentic ahadith?
Didn't anybody ever decide to study them in order to eliminate the false ahadith and leave only the authentic ones?
I mean the learned shia scholars should at least remove the ones which clearly contradict the Holy Qur'an for a start!:cool: :)
What do you think brother Boy-Nice?

Wasalaam.

[BOY-NICE]

Salaam,

I think you meant to say that they are sinless(in your beliefs) rather than sinners.:cool: :)

I would just like to ask why the shia books contain many unauthentic ahadith?
Didn't anybody ever decide to study them in order to eliminate the false ahadith and leave only the authentic ones?
I mean the learned shia scholars should at least remove the ones which clearly contradict the Holy Qur'an for a start!:cool: :)
What do you think brother Boy-Nice?

Wasalaam.

salam..

Well as i have always been saying that Shia books are just the collection of Hadiths which contain all types of hadith i.e sahih, mursal, weak etc..
And it wont be wise to make changes in the compilations made by some early respected scholars and put it in a way the present day scholar wishes.That might beget new issues as some scholars may differ in the grading of a particular hadith. We have scholars and their vewis about all topics also the Rijal studies are there therefore the unauthentic traditions does not create problems. Moreover when the compiler himself stated in the preface of his book that one shud accept the hadiths which are in accordance with Quran and throw the contradictory ones then there is no such need.

The recent example of making changes in the books of early scholars was set by Wahabi/salafi scholar Al Bani who separated hadiths of Sunan Ibn Majah etc and made new compilations and we also saw its condemnation by others scholars of Ahle Sunnah. So idea isnt sound one.

[Nadeem]

We have scholars and their vewis about all topics also the Rijal studies are there therefore the unauthentic traditions does not create problems.


Salaam again,

Okay so they don't present problems for learned shias but what about some shia sects who believe in the weaker narrations and also non-shias who think that all the narrations are firm shia belief?:cool: :)

I don't think there is anything wrong in throwing out the false narrations and the original scholars who compiled the books should have done so.:cool:

Wasalaam.

[BOY-NICE]

salam..


Okay so they don't present problems for learned shias but what about some shia sects who believe in the weaker narrations and also non-shias who think that all the narrations are firm shia belief?

As for the sect within Shias then there exists only one group who believes all hadiths to be true and since they also reject Taqleed hence they have nothing like consulting a scholar. So that group is not going to find any change whether we separate sahih hadiths from it or not. As for non-Shias, the books of a sect is for its followers not for others. If an outsider wants to learn or check the belief of a school of thought then he needs to read himself from the books of that school and NOT from quoations cited by the anti segments and shud consult scholar and give some time to learn the complete meanings and context of a topic.

When you talk about non Shias then its not only the grading of a hadith which effects but in several hadiths (specialy cited by anti shia segments) they meanings drawn by them are not the one which the sect accepts. Hence in this case as well, separating Sahih or other hadiths wont work and one has got no other choice than to consult the scholar of that sect so as to know the actual meaning the follow . For example you wud often come accross on anti-shia cites a quotation from Shia book i,e "Allah tells lie" (Nauzobillah). Now the word used here is "bada" which means "change" and which will mean that "Allah might changes his decision in a particular matter" like He sends his warth on a people but after their extreme repentence He [swt] withdraws the wrath.

So the bottom line is, NEVER believe in the quoations and their attributed meanings cited by the anti segments of a sect rather consult the scholars or some books by leanred scholars of very sect in order to know the untwisted meanings/grading of a tradition.

[ihsan]

"Okay so they don't present problems for learned shias but what about some shia sects who believe in the weaker narrations and also non-shias who think that all the narrations are firm shia belief?

I don't think there is anything wrong in throwing out the false narrations and the original scholars who compiled the books should have done so."

1. This is not just exclusive to shias, but sunnis as well. Even the six-standard hadeeth works are full of hadeeths of varying grades. One of the problems is that there are different standards for different scholars. One scholar may hold a hadeeth as acceptable, another may not. It is an issue of methodology.

2. The opinion that the Quran is preserved is accepted by both sunnis and shias. It is only a minor fringe sect, which are considered by the consensus of shias as non-Muslims, trhat hold this opinion. Why do people in thier fanaticism find it necessary to attribute things to certain groups which in reality give weight for non-Muslims to make arguments against Muslims? Non-Muslims may, based upon baseless accusations, say "well, shias themselves hold the Quran is not in its present form, and yet you Muslims are telling us that there is consensus that it is preserved to every letter." How stupid do we have to go?

3. Further, why does everyone have to attribute taqiyah to all shias, as if its a massive conspiracy. Not that I agree with shiaism, but it is distortion to accuse them to hold taqiyyah as what is akin to hypocrisy.

4. There are sunni sects which have just as many abhorrent beliefs and practices also, and they find no basis in the Quran or sunnah. Are we holding different standards for everybody else? Further, just as there are many different flavorings within sunniism, there is also many different flavors within shiaism. This is hypocrisy.

[Nadeem]

Salaam Ihsan,

Many thanks for your post but in the six recognised authentic 'sunni' ahadith collections,many of the fabricated ahadith were removed while they were originally being compiled(from hundreds of thousands) and only some doubtful ahadith remained.
None of the original compilers included any of the most obviously fabricated ahadith in their collections.:cool:
That is why I asked the question regarding the shia ahadith compilations.
I wasn't trying to make any bad impression of shias or anything like that.:)

I agree that there are many sunni sects who hold abhorrent and erroneous beliefs.:)

Wasalaam.