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Tabari
10th May 2005, 11:56
Is Abdullah bin Saba' a Myth?

Recently, some Shi'ites began to claim that "Abdullah bin Saba'" is a myth and an imaginative personality who never existed in history who is portrayed by legend as being a mysterious person and difficult to prove that he ever existed.
When Islam came, some Jews attempted to abort this new religion. Their endeavors took many forms and shapes, from attempts to assassinate the Apostle of Allah [saw] to waging wars that ended in deporting most of them from al-Madinah or executing those who betrayed the truce. Similarly, they were convinced that the best way to destroy Islam and the Muslims' unity was to resort to the plot of deception. A Yemenite Jew by the name of Abdullah bin Saba' pretended to have embraced Islam to plant secretly the seeds of this new cult which he successfully performed. He arrived from Yemen to al-Madinah during the era of Zunnurain Caliph Othman bin 'Affaan [ra] and started to plan and cook the plot, waiting for the proper opportunity which he found in Ali [ra].


As I earlier said that Recently, some Shi'ites began to claim that "Abdullah bin Saba'" is a myth and an imaginative personality who never existed in history, how true?


It is natural for them to be ashamed of this fact, but our question to them is, why they kept silent for 14 centuries and not a single scholar of them disputed this fact throughout this period? Furthermore, what do they say about the giant scholars of theirs who confirmed the existance of this Jew, and what do they say about their "Infallible" Imams who likewise confirmed his existence? Certainly, if Ibn Saba' was a myth, then this is a blow to their credibility and "Infallibity" and the entire footings of Shi'ism has thereby collapsed.
Nevertheless, we'll prove our point, not by using Sunni or Orientalists sources, but will call to the witness stand their very own historians and whom they call deputies of Allah on earth, the "Infallible" Imams:


First: Abu Muhammad al-Hasan bin Musa al-Nubakhti:
The well known Shi'ite "Who's Who" critic, al-Najashi in his al-Fihrist, wrote:


"al-Hasan bin Musa: Abu Muhammad al-Nubakhti, the well versed in dialectism, who surpassed the peers of his time prior and after the 300 (hijra)"
al-Fihrist: al-Najashi, p.47; From Ash-Shi'a was-Sunnah, p.22


Another "Who's Who" critic, At-Tusi, in his al-Fihrist wrote:


"Abu Muhammad, dialectist and philosopher, was an Imami (shi'ite), an upright in faith, trustworthy (thiqah)....and he is one of the scholars' landmarks"
al-Fihrist: At-Tusi, p.98; From Ash-Shi'a Was-Sunnah, p.22
Nurallah at-Tasturi, in his "Majaalis al-Mu'mineen" wrote:


"al-Hasan bin Musa, one of the celebrity of this sect and its scholars. He was a dialectist, a philosopher, an Imami in faith"
Majaalis al-Mu'mineen: Nurallah At-Tasturi, p.177; from Ash-Shi'a was-Sunnah, p.22
Having established the authority of this historian from the Shi'ites own sources, let's read what Mr. al-Nubakhti had to say about Ibn Saba':


"Abdullah bin Saba', was one of those who slandered Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman and the Companions and disowned them. He claimed that it was Ali [as] who enjoined this on him. Ali arrested him, and upon interrogation, admitted to the charge, and (Ali) ordered him to be executed. The People cried 'O Chief of Believers ! Do you execute a man calling to your love, Ahlul-Bayt, to your allegiance, and disowning your enemies?' He (Ali) then exiled him to al-Mada'in (Capital of Iran back then). Some of the knowledgeable companions of Ali [as] narrated that Abdullah bin Saba' was a Jew who embraced Islam and sided with Ali [as]. That he was of the opinion, at the time when he was a Jew, claiming that Yousha' bin Noon is after Moses. After his submission to Islam, after the demise of the Prophet [pbuh], he claimed the same for Ali [as]. He was the first to publicly mandate the Imamah of Ali [as], disowning his enemies, and debated his opposers... When Abdullah bin Saba' heard of the demise of Ali while in (his exile at) al-Mada'in, he said to the announcer of the news: 'You are a liar, if you are to bring his head in seventy bags, and brought seventy witnesses testifying to his death, we'll insist that he did not die nor murdered, and (he) shall not die till he rules the globe' ".
Firaq al-Shi'a: Nubakhti, pp. 43,44
Second: Abu Amr bin Abdul Aziz al-Kash-shi: Another well known "Who's Who" critic who also mentioned Ibn Saba', and one of the earliest Shi'ite biographist. In the "Introduction" to his book, known as "Rijaal al-Kash-shi", we read:


"He is trustworthy (thiqah), an adept, an expert in traditions and men, very knowledgeable, well founded in faith, on the upright path......The most important books on biographies of men are four, which are heavily depended on and (considered) the four basic pillars in this field, the most important and earliest of all is: Ma'rifat al-Naqileen anil-A'immah As-Sadiqeen (Knowing the Transmittors on The Authority of The Truthful Imams) known as Rijaal al-Kash-shi".
Rijaal al-Kash-shi: al-Najaashi, Introduction.
Having established the authority of this scholar, let's examine what he has to say about the Jew Ibn Saba':


"Some people of knowledge mentioned that Abdullah bin Saba' was a Jew, who embraced Islam and supported Ali. While he was still a Jew, he used to go to extremism in calling Yousha' bin Noon as the appointee (successor) of Moses, thus after embracing Islam - after the demise of the Messenger of Allah [pbuh] - he said the like about Ali. It was him who first publicly announced the mandatory Iamamah for Ali, rejected and disowned his enemies, debated his opponents and called them Kafirs."
Rijaal al-Kash-shi: Abu 'Amr bin Abdul Aziz al-Kash-shi, p.101 al-Mamaqaani, author of "Tanqeeh al-Maqaal", who is an authoritative Shi'i biogrophist quoted the like in his said book, p.184
Now, if these Shi'ites authorities lied about the identity of Ibn Saba', then the possibility of them lying about other matters, like the events of Siffien, the murder of al-Hussain [ra] and other Shi'i dogmas, stands greater. Consequently, if this is the case, doubt will overshadow any and all events and narrations recorded by them.


But assuming that the foresaid men are liars, and error infiltrated to their books, and therefore their testimony is not a proof (hujjah) nor binding, then we invite you to examine the testimony of those who are "Infallible" and looked at as "Deputies of Allah" whose sayings are equal to Allah's as the Shi'ites claim:


1. "Narrated to me Muhammad bin Qolawaih: Narrated to me Sa'd bin Abdullah, said: Narrated to us Yaqoub bin Yazeed and Muhammad bin Issa from Ali bin Mahziyar, from Fadalah bin Ayoub al-Azdi, from Abban bin Othman said: I heard Abu Abdullah [as] saying:
'May Allah curse Abdallah bin Saba', he claimed a divineship for Amirul-Mu'mineen (Ali) [as]. By Allah, Amierul-Mu'mineen [as] was volunterily the slave of Allah. Woe to him who lie about us, for there are people who say about us what we don't say about ourselves,we clear ourselves to Allah from them, we clear ourselves to Allah from them'."
2. "Narrated Yaqoub bin Yazeed from Ibn Abi Omair and Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Issa, from his father and al-Husain bin Sa'eed, from Hisham bin Salim, from Abu Hamza al-Thumali said: Ali bin al-Husain [as] said:
'May the curse of Allah be upon those who tell lies about us. I mentioned Abdullah Ibn Saba and each hair in my body stood up, Allah cursed him. Ali (AS) was, by Allah, a proper servant of Allah, the brother of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). He did not earn the graciousness/honor from Allah except with the obedience to Allah and His Messenger. And (similarly) the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) did not earn the honor from Allah except with his obedience to Allah'."


3. Narrated Muhammad bin Khalid At-Tayalisi, from Ibn Abi Najran, from Abdullah bin Sinaan said: Abu Abdullah [as] said:
"We are a family of truthfulness. But we are not safe from a liar telling lies about us to undermine our truth with his lies in front of people. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) was the most truthful among people in what he said (Lahjatan) and the most truthful among all humanity; and Musaylima used to lie on him. The Commander of Believers (AS) was the most truthful one among the creation of Allah after the Messenger of Allah; and the one who used to lie on him, and tried to undermine his truthfulness and claimed lies about Allah, was Abdullah Ibn Saba." .


Ibid, pp. 100,101
Need further Shi'ites sources? We'll call to testimony al-Hasan bin Ali al-Hilly, another famous Shi'i biographist, and examine what he had to say about the Jew Ibn Saba':


"Abdullah bin Saba' returned to disbelief and showed extremism. He claimed prophethood, and that Ali [as] was Allah (in the flesh). Ali [as], for three (consecutive) days asked him to repent but he failed, thereupon, he [as] burned him (alive) with seventy other men who attributed divinship to him"
Kitaab al-Rijaal: al-Hilly, p.469, printed in Tehran, Iran 1383 h. From Ash-Shi'a wat-Tashayyu', p.56
We'll further call another witness for the stand, the Shi'i biogrophist, al-Astra Abadi, and examine his tesitmony:


"Abdullah bin Saba' claimed prophethood and that Ali [as] is himself Allah the Most Exalted. Upon hearing this charge, Amirul-Mu'mineen called and inquired it from him. When he admitted, he said to him: back off from this say and repent, may your mother lose you. However;(Ibn Saba') refused, and (Ali) held him for three days, and, still refusing to repent, he therefore burned him(alive)"
Manhaj al-Maqaal: al-Astar Abadi, p.203, from: Ash-Ashia wat-Tashayyu', p.56
We have another witness, which we like to take his statement, a Persian historian, in his "Tareekh Shi'i" confirmed and wrote:


"When Abdullah bin Saba' learned that the opposition to Othman in Egypt was greater, he went there and pretended the knowledge and righteouseness until the people trusted him. After he established himself there, he started to propagate his ideas and theory, that for each Prophet was an appointed successor, and the appointee (wasi) of the Apostle of Allah and his successor is no other than Ali, who is blessed with knowledge and Fatwa, ornamented with generousity and courage, and known for his honesty and righteouseness. He further said: The Ummah has wronged Ali, usurped his right, the right of Khilafah (succession) and Walayah (allegiance). It is encumbant upon you all to aid and support him. He (immediately) revoked his obedience and allegiance to Othman, and touched many Egyptians with his sayings and deeds, and they revolted against Othman"
Tareekh Shi'i: Rawdat As-Safa, vol.2, p.292, Tehran Ed., From: Ashi'a wat-Tashayyu' , p.56
And there are hundreds of other books who affirmed and confirmed, that Shi'ism started with this Jewish Yemenite who pretended "Love of Ahlul-Bayt" and sought justice for them, as a plot to crack the unity of the Muslim Ummah who defeated the Jewish tribes in the Arabic Penensula. It is not amazing therefore, that the alliance between some Jews and the Persian Majoos (Zoroastrians) prosper to revenge from those who destroyed their dreams and humiliated a civilization not long ago, was one of two super powers in the world. This is briefly why Shi'ism prospered mainly in the land of the Fire worshippers, Persia.

Allah knows best

Hashim
10th May 2005, 15:55
Aslaam Alaykum

Of course the shiaa reject him as a myth, it is thought that a jew by this name tryed to sabatarge islaam by striking disunity in the heart of the muslims, So he makes this group, shiaa. So of course the shiaa will always reject him.

BOY-NICE
10th May 2005, 17:06
And there are hundreds of other books who affirmed and confirmed, that Shi'ism started with this Jewish Yemenite who pretended "Love of Ahlul-Bayt" and sought justice for them, as a plot to crack the unity of the Muslim Ummah who defeated the Jewish tribes in the Arabic Penensula. It is not amazing therefore, that the alliance between some Jews and the Persian Majoos (Zoroastrians) prosper to revenge from those who destroyed their dreams and humiliated a civilization not long ago, was one of two super powers in the world. This is briefly why Shi'ism prospered mainly in the land of the Fire worshippers, Persia.



Aslaam Alaykum

Of course the shiaa reject him as a myth, it is thought that a jew by this name tryed to sabatarge islaam by striking disunity in the heart of the muslims, So he makes this group, shiaa. So of course the shiaa will always reject him.

To all those ignorants who think that Shia Mazhab started by A jew shud first do some homework.

They were the Shia of Ali[as] in praise of whom a verse was revealed in Holy Quran and they are the Shia of Ali[as] whom prophet[s] gave glad tidings.

“Those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of the creatures. Their reward from their Lord shall be everlasting gardens, below which flow rivers, they will abide there forever. Well pleased is God with them and they are well pleased with Him” (Quran 98:7)”.

Muhammad bin Ali narrates in Tafsir ibne Jarir, Volume 33 page 146 (Cairo edition) that the Prophet (saww) said “The best of creations are you Ali and your Shi’as”.


Jalaladin Suyuti, (849 - 911 AH) is one of the highest ranking Sunni scholars of all times. In his commentary of this verse, he records through 3 Isnaad (chains) of narrators that the Prophet (saww) told his companions that the verse referred to Ali and his Shia. Hadhrath Ali narrates in Tafsir Durre Mansur, Volume 6 page 379 (Cairo edition)
“Have you not heard this verse “Their reward from their Lord shall be everlasting gardens, below which flow rivers, they will abide there forever”? This verse refers to you and your Shi’a, I promise you that I will meet you at the Fountain of Kawthur”.

The 3 Sahaba who narrated this Hadeeth are (1) Ali (as) himself (2) Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari (ra) (3) Abdullah ibne Abbas (ra).

This tradition can also be read in the online Tafseer dur e Manthur at
Tafseer Dure Manthur, Commentry of Verse 98:7 (http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=248&CID=545#s2)

So do you really think that Holy Prophet[s] will praise a Madhab that will have it roots in jewsim ? And what do you guyz think about Almighty Allah[swt] who has revealed the Holy verse ? Common !

Moreover Imam of Ahle Sunnah Muhaddis Shah Abdul Aziz Dehalwi writes in his renowned anti-shia book :

"The title Shi'a was first given to those Muhajireen and Ansar who gave allegiance (bay'ah) to Ali (may Allah enlighten his face). They were his steadfast faithful followers during his (Ali's) caliphate. They remained close to him, they always fought his enemies, and kept on following Ali's commands and prohibitions. The true Shi'a are these who came in 37 Hijri"
Tuhfa Ithna Ashari (Urdu) page 27, published in Karachi

So were those companions (Muhajreen and Ansaar ) Jew !

Think before you accuse !

Dhahabi
10th May 2005, 17:16
salaams

Boy-nice you havn't yet refuted the proofs from your own sources! how can you convince people with your feelings solely?

Now try to refute the swines and apes in the following link:
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/dajjal.html

Dhahabi
10th May 2005, 17:19
I want you to refute the following:

"Furthermore, as we just said, we're using an army of Shias rather than Jews, but they're basically just as good as Jews. With all their mystical emphasis put on the number twelve[ by the way you have 12 imams], we're slowly convincing them that the actual names of the twelve Imams [asbaat in the Qur'aan]were Yehudah, Ruven, Naftali, Shimon, Levi, Yosef, et cetera. Indeed, the earliest Shias were Jews, as Professor H.Graetz indirectly pointed out:

"The Babylonian Jews and the Nestorian Christians embraced the cause of Ali and rendered him material assistance. A Jew by the name of Abdallah Ibn Saba was an enthusiastic partisan of Ali, and proved to the Mohammedans on mystical grounds that Ali alone was worthy of the califate since the spirit of Mohammed descended upon him just as the spirit of Moses upon Joshua.

At the capture of Peroz-Shabur or Anbar, a multitude, said to consist of ninety thousand Jews, headed by Mar Isaac, the chief of the academy of Sura, acclaimed Ali and paid homage to him at a time when his own followers were rather lukewarm in their support (658)."
[Graetz, History of the Jews, Vol. III (Hebrew Publishing co. 1919), p.4]

And don't tell me we cannot refer to it because even kuffar sometimes say the truth!

Al-Boriqi
10th May 2005, 17:54
I believ ANsaar refuted the claim of modern day shia when he proved that texts from the earlier shia recognized him as a real person.

asalamu alaikum

BOY-NICE
10th May 2005, 19:19
salaams

Boy-nice you havn't yet refuted the proofs from your own sources! how can you convince people with your feelings solely?

Now try to refute the swines and apes in the following link:
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/dajjal.html

I have already refuted the junk i.e Shia Madhab is related to some jew ! What alse do you want ? I didnt get any answer till yet abt that ? If Shia Mazhab was reallt related to jewsim then why did Allah [swt] revealed verse in praise of Shia of Ali[as] and why there are so many hadiths where Holy Prophet[s] has praised Shia of Ali[as] ? Can you refute the things i had posted ?

As for the link provided by you, there are hundreds of such junk offered by Naasbis on net. Do you think i will start wasting time on each and every Naasbi Junk ???

BOY-NICE
10th May 2005, 19:27
I want you to refute the following:

"Furthermore, as we just said, we're using an army of Shias rather than Jews, but they're basically just as good as Jews. With all their mystical emphasis put on the number twelve[ by the way you have 12 imams], we're slowly convincing them that the actual names of the twelve Imams [asbaat in the Qur'aan]were Yehudah, Ruven, Naftali, Shimon, Levi, Yosef, et cetera. Indeed, the earliest Shias were Jews, as Professor H.Graetz indirectly pointed out:

"The Babylonian Jews and the Nestorian Christians embraced the cause of Ali and rendered him material assistance. A Jew by the name of Abdallah Ibn Saba was an enthusiastic partisan of Ali, and proved to the Mohammedans on mystical grounds that Ali alone was worthy of the califate since the spirit of Mohammed descended upon him just as the spirit of Moses upon Joshua.

At the capture of Peroz-Shabur or Anbar, a multitude, said to consist of ninety thousand Jews, headed by Mar Isaac, the chief of the academy of Sura, acclaimed Ali and paid homage to him at a time when his own followers were rather lukewarm in their support (658)."
[Graetz, History of the Jews, Vol. III (Hebrew Publishing co. 1919), p.4]

And don't tell me we cannot refer to it because even kuffar sometimes say the truth!

Learn some debate manners before coming over. You are using third party sources to convince your opponent ? :eek:


And don't tell me we cannot refer to it because even kuffar sometimes say the truth!

When it suits you then Kufaar are correct else they are wrong ! I think this is what in simple words can be called ''hypocrasy" ?
What if i start advacing text from the books of Kuffar where they insulted some of our Prophets and ask its explaination from you ??

jello
13th May 2005, 11:35
Salaam

I believe that BOY-NICE would do better if he were to concentrate on explaining the general presence of extremists in the Shia religion.

Alright, if Abdullah ibn Saba' is a myth, then that is OK, but what is not a myth is that there were Shia groups before and today even that give amazing exagerrated qualities to Ali, things that even most Imami Shias would consider as abhorrent.

So one thing we need to see is the historical background behind extremist tendencies among Shia groups, rather than proving or disproving the existence of one man.

BOY-NICE
17th May 2005, 15:59
Mr Tariq ! There was no need to copy paste stuff from Nasibi websites which have already been disucssed here !

Ameen
14th June 2005, 18:54
Assalamu ala man taba'al hudah:

Sunni and shiite version concerning Abdullaah bin saba [tha arab jew who set up the shiites:
Shi'ites {using tuqiah] always claim that "Abdullah bin Saba'" is a myth and an imaginative personality who never existed in history who is portrayed by legend as being a mysterious person and difficult to prove that he ever existed.
more details from:
http://forums.understanding-islam.org/community/showthread.php?t=1451

Jewish version regarding the man who set up the shiites:
http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/dajjal.html

Thus Sunnis, Shiites{the black sheep of Israel},and the Jews are unanimous that the shiites are a jewish conspiracy similar to the catholics made up by Paul or Saul.

The truth is blatant!

Ameen
14th June 2005, 19:05
Other shiites sources that make sodomy & homosexuality Halaal?? !!![Astaghfirullaah]:
Amazing how these Shi'a Rabbis lie on Allah, the Apostle and their own Imams, in a manner that is most insulting to the family of the Messenger [saw], which strengthen the belief that this cult is in fact the product of a few Jewish Ribbis:

(1) "(Narrated) Ali bin Ibrahim from his father from al-Nufaly from As-Sukoony from (Imam) Abu Abdallah [as] said: Amierul-Mu'mineen (Ali) [as] said: (al-Luwaat ma doon ad-dubur, wad-dubur huwal-kufr) Sodomy is in (anything) other than dubur (anal sex), for dubur [has multi meanings] is actually the Kufr (disbelief)".
The commentator on al-Kafi wrote: "It is possible to understand (from the statement) that Sodomizing (a man) is permissible"
al-Kafi (fil Furoo'): Book of Marriage: Chapter of Sodomy,narration 3, vol.5, p.544
Mashallah !! what a religion !

Also you should know that dubur has many meaning so the hadiths from sunni sources have nothing to do with you previous claims! So please stop putting words in sunni scholars' mouth and repent to Allaah.
Fore more details refer to:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Deviant/Shia/women_and_sex.html