Fresh and salt water

[justavisitor]

Freshwater and salt water do have little (in salt wedge), medium (partially mixed) as well as complete (vertically homogeneous) mixing. There is no event where there will be zero mixing. Even in the absence of wind and currents (which is an absurd and non-physical condition), these two waters will start to mix by diffusion. So there is no “forbidden barrier” between freshwater and salt water as is claimed in 025.053"It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed"

Even a simple experiment anyone can do at home by pouring fresh and salt water in a cup and mixing them is enough to disprove the verse above.

[StopS]

I suppose that the people in those days did not understand the water cycle and could not find any other explanation why rivers never contained salt-water and seas always did.

What is funny is that I did exactly that and recorded it in a video. I then added a dash of oil to show what a "barrier" between liquids should look like.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFy-QAVbbhA

[shaad_lko]

Freshwater and salt water do have little (in salt wedge), medium (partially mixed) as well as complete (vertically homogeneous) mixing. There is no event where there will be zero mixing. Even in the absence of wind and currents (which is an absurd and non-physical condition), these two waters will start to mix by diffusion. So there is no “forbidden barrier” between freshwater and salt water as is claimed in 025.053"It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed"

Even a simple experiment anyone can do at home by pouring fresh and salt water in a cup and mixing them is enough to disprove the verse above.

the verse refers to the well-known phenomenon of simultaneous presence of saltwater and freshwater on the earth- and not to the extent of intermixing between them..



I suppose that the people in those days did not understand the water cycle and could not find any other explanation why rivers never contained salt-water and seas always did.
your statement is premised on the assumption that the Quran is a human work, while any intelligent person who has studied literature and history would not make such a claim..

[naderM]

Shaad already answered the original objection that forgets how those to whom the verse was primarly addressed, the Arabs, were land and sea travellers and how they passed through estuaries and points where a river met the ocean to see both bodies of water mixing.
25:53 doesnt locate that barrier between the 2 water types simply because it isnt speaking of a physical location where the 2 meet and do not mix. Its the opposite, as pointed to in the words "flowing freely" meaning without any restriction or barrier between the 2. Yet despite this continuous mixing, fresh water continues to exist and regenerate because of the laws established by the Creator that keeps that continuosly seperate them despite their mingling. These laws act as a barrier preventing them from remaining in their mixed state.

[StopS]

Shaad already answered the original objection that forgets how those to whom the verse was primarly addressed, the Arabs, were land and sea travellers and how they passed through estuaries and points where a river met the ocean to see both bodies of water mixing.
25:53 doesnt locate that barrier between the 2 water types simply because it isnt speaking of a physical location where the 2 meet and do not mix. Its the opposite, as pointed to in the words "flowing freely" meaning without any restriction or barrier between the 2. Yet despite this continuous mixing, fresh water continues to exist and regenerate because of the laws established by the Creator that keeps that continuosly seperate them despite their mingling. These laws act as a barrier preventing them from remaining in their mixed state.

I have no problem with shaad's reply and would have left it at that, but you have a curious perception which prompts me to ask something:

"see both bodies of water mixing" = they mix
"do not mix" = they don't mix
"without any restriction or barrier" = they mix
"keeps that continuosly seperate" = they don't mix
"despite their mingling" = they mix
"act as a barrier" = they don't mix
"in their mixed state" = they mix

Could you please make up your mind?

As an aside: what on Earth is "fresh water continues to exist and regenerate"??? Does water go on holiday or get a massage which regenerates it?

[naderM]

That post you quoted doesnt say or imply the 2 water types dont mix. They do mix however they are prevented from remaining in that mixed state due to a barrier, the hydrocyle, which regenerates fresh water continuously

[hyd]

They may mix slightly but overall they run for miles without mixing. For example, Rio Negro and Amazon River.


The Meeting of Waters (Portuguese: Encontro das Águas) is the confluence between the Rio Negro, a river with dark (almost black coloured) water, and the sandy-coloured Amazon River or Rio Solimões, as it is known the upper section of the Amazon in Brazil. For 6 km (3.7 mi) the river's waters run side by side without mixing. It is one of the main tourist attractions of Manaus, Brazil.

This phenomenon is due to the differences in temperature, speed and water density of the two rivers. The Rio Negro flows at near 2 km per hour at a temperature of 28°C, while the Rio Solimões flows between 4 to 6 km per hour a temperature of 22°C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_Waters

In Quran it is used as analogy to give some understanding for this material world and another world, how they exist side by side with a barrier.

[StopS]

That post you quoted doesnt say or imply the 2 water types dont mix. They do mix however they are prevented from remaining in that mixed state due to a barrier, the hydrocyle, which regenerates fresh water continuously

I made fun of your rambling jumping between yes and no continuously and you don't comment?

Now you write down some words which I have never before seen in this combination. They don't make any sense. Can you demonstrate what you are saying? What is a "hydrocycle"? Can you explain?

Are you trying to explain what "fresh water continues to exist and regenerate" means? How do you regenerate water? Are you trying to explain rain?

[StopS]

They may mix slightly but overall they run for miles without mixing. For example, Rio Negro and Amazon River.

In Quran it is used as analogy to give some understanding for this material world and another world, how they exist side by side with a barrier.

This is known as a layer. A water layer. Water with different properties mix, but gradually. So does water with different properties mix or not, according to the Koran? I don't see anything in the Koran mentioning rivers running side-by-side. It says they don't mix. It does not say they mix gradually. or slightly. It says they don't mix.

two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed

Rivers do not carry salt and bitter water. It says there is a barrier, which can't be passed. Never. Not at all. Now if you are suggesting this is to be taken metaphorically or allegorically, then I agree with you.
Or if you suggest there is an obvious barrier: land, then yes, that's possible and correct.

[hyd]

Meeting of the Waters. The meeting of the waters is natural phenomenon caused from the confluence of dark waters of the Rio Negro and clay waters of Rio Solimoes for about 5 miles (8 Km) to form the Amazon River. A truly amazing spectacle to behold, the warmer, clearer black waters of the Rio Negro run side by side with the salty, muddy brown waters of Rio Solimoes for 6 km without mixing - a spectacular phenomenon to witness. In Manaus, in front of the Meeting of the Waters is a tourist structure, which contains belvederes for the contemplation of this magnificent natural phenomenon.

http://www.ariautowers.com/html/manaus-brazil-our-neighborhood.asp


........

[naderM]

I made fun of your rambling jumping between yes and no continuously and you don't comment?

Now you write down some words which I have never before seen in this combination. They don't make any sense. Can you demonstrate what you are saying? What is a "hydrocycle"? Can you explain?

Are you trying to explain what "fresh water continues to exist and regenerate" means? How do you regenerate water? Are you trying to explain rain?

Maraja in 25:53 means joined. It tells you the 2 water types are joined together and that following this mixing a barrier seperates them completely. It is the hydro/water cycle that extracts fresh water from the sea and regenerates/replenishes rivers lakes etc continuously.

Mississipi flows into the Gulf of mexico and mixes with salt water. The hydro cycle seperates a certain quantity of salt and fresh water completely then replenishes the same Mississipi and other fresh water sources.

Maybe using colors will help you:

Mississipi flows into the Gulf of mexico and mixes with salt water. The hydro cycle seperates a certain quantity of salt and fresh water completely then replenishes the same Mississipi and other fresh water sources.

And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

[StopS]

Maraja in 25:53 means joined. It tells you the 2 water types are joined together and that following this mixing a barrier seperates them completely. It is the hydro/water cycle that extracts fresh water from the sea and regenerates/replenishes rivers lakes etc continuously.

Mississipi flows into the Gulf of mexico and mixes with salt water. The hydro cycle seperates a certain quantity of salt and fresh water completely then replenishes the same Mississipi and other fresh water sources.

Maybe using colors will help you:

Mississipi flows into the Gulf of mexico and mixes with salt water. The hydro cycle seperates a certain quantity of salt and fresh water completely then replenishes the same Mississipi and other fresh water sources.

And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

You probably think you are making sense and I appreciate your effort, but there is no appreciable logic or rationale in what you are writing.

An ocean (e.g. Indian Ocean) with salt water is actually 2 types of water? Defined by what? The evaporation is the effect that the atmosphere carries moisture upwards. Where is the second sea? Where is the barrier? And what if it rains over an ocean? And what if transpiration adds moisture from a river?

"He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely" = what. What are the 2 seas? The Mississippi is a sea? The 2nd sea is moisture? The water cycle is defined. The Koran does not mention anything in the water cycle. You can interpret rain as precipitation, which would not be accurate, but could be called close enough. But everything else is missing completely.

You need to badly check what you are writing.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2000/of00-369/

[naderM]

Bahr is used for big bodies of water, including seas and rivers. When they meet, they are 2 different water types until they are joined then seperated again by a barrier, a metaphor for the water cycle.

[StopS]

Bahr is used for big bodies of water, including seas and rivers. When they meet, they are 2 different water types until they are joined then seperated again by a barrier, a metaphor for the water cycle.

Who cares? What are the two "big bodies of water"? Which ones are sweet and salty? Does it specify? No!

I just showed you how wrong any reference to the water cycle is and you simply repeat it? You can't explain, you can't prove or demonstrate anything and ignore that your claim is completely nonsensical. :comma2:

[shaad_lko]

Who cares? What are the two "big bodies of water"? Which ones are sweet and salty? Does it specify? No!

I just showed you how wrong any reference to the water cycle is and you simply repeat it? You can't explain, you can't prove or demonstrate anything and ignore that your claim is completely nonsensical. :comma2:

StopS, it would help if your replies start containing lesser "you"s, for a change. This is not a comment on the merit of your arguments.

[StopS]

StopS, it would help if your replies start containing lesser "you"s, for a change. This is not a comment on the merit of your arguments.

I've tried everything else, why would that help? Does it show that I am getting frustrated?

[naderM]

Who cares? What are the two "big bodies of water"? Which ones are sweet and salty? Does it specify? No!

I just showed you how wrong any reference to the water cycle is and you simply repeat it? You can't explain, you can't prove or demonstrate anything and ignore that your claim is completely nonsensical. :comma2:

No such thing as a single body of water being both sweet and salty in the verse. For the last time the "bahrayn" are the sea and the river that empties itself in the former. As far as the hydrocycle it is an apropriate analogy with a barrier since it causes a seperation between fresh and salty water.

[StopS]

No such thing as a single body of water being both sweet and salty in the verse. For the last time the "bahrayn" are the sea and the river that empties itself in the former. As far as the hydrocycle it is an apropriate analogy with a barrier since it causes a seperation between fresh and salty water.

I give up. You don't want to reason, listen or learn. So believe what you want, just don't expect others to believe what you believe.

[Spiderman]

Fresh water is lighter than salt water. Therefore, fresh water "floats" on top of salt water. This principle becomes extremely important when considering the drilling of a well in order to tap into the ground water of any island. The weight of the rain water that percolates into the ground depresses the salt water beneath it forming a profile that has the appearance of a lens. This is called the Ghyben-Herzberg lens. The principle of this relationship was discovered independently by a Dutch scientist named Baden-Ghyben and a German scientist named Herzberg.

The underground boundary that separates the fresh water layer from the salt water is not a sharp boundary line. In reality, this boundary is a transition zone of brackish water (fresh/salt mixture). This is caused by seasonal fluctuations in rainfall, tidal action, and the amount of water being withdrawn either by humans or by natural discharge.


Salt Water vs. Fresh Water - Ghyben-Herzberg Lens (http://geography.about.com/library/misc/ucghyben.htm)

[StopS]

Fresh water is lighter than salt water. Therefore, fresh water "floats" on top of salt water.

The underground boundary that separates the fresh water layer from the salt water is not a sharp boundary line.


And? What does this mean regarding fresh and salt water?