Half the punishment for lewdness

[ProphetofTolerance]

The Koran says slave wives found guilty of lewdness receive half the punishment prescribed for free women found guilty of lewdness:


4:25 - And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case).

However, the punishment for lewdness in the Koran is permanent home confinement:


4:15 - As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way.

Half of what is permanent is still permanent.

How can the Koran say slave wives will receive half of a permanent sentence and still be logically consistent?

[shaad_lko]

The Koran says slave wives found guilty of lewdness receive half the punishment prescribed for free women found guilty of lewdness:



However, the punishment for lewdness in the Koran is permanent home confinement:



Half of what is permanent is still permanent.

How can the Koran say slave wives will receive half of a permanent sentence and still be logically consistent?

half the punishment, ie 50 stripes instead of 100 (as per 24:2). Quran is not chronologically arranged if that's what the confusion is about..

[ProphetofTolerance]

Koran 24:2 - The fornicatress and the fornicator -- scourge each one of them a hundred stripes, and in the matter of God's religion let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in God and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their chastisement.

Why would the Koran be referring to lashes when lashes are used for fornicators?

The punishment for lewdness is home confinement. Half the punishment for free women guilty of lewdness is home confinement.

Apart from being unable to halve permanent home confinement, why would you think slave wives guilty of lewdness receive the punishment for fornicators?

[shaad_lko]

Why would the Koran be referring to lashes when lashes are used for fornicators?

The punishment for lewdness is home confinement. Half the punishment for free women guilty of lewdness is home confinement.

Apart from being unable to halve permanent home confinement, why would you think slave wives guilty of lewdness receive the punishment for fornicators?

didnt know we had an Arabic expert in here. Now, read carefully - 24:2-3, 4:15 and 4:25 all refer to fornication. First, 4:15 was revealed where no punishment was specified, then 24:2-3 which specify the punishment of 100 lashes, and then 4:25 which qualifies the same for slaves. There is something simple called construction and style of phrases (used in these verses) which proves that fornicators are being referred to..

[ProphetofTolerance]

No, I don't think an Arabic expert has shown up yet.

But seriously, what's the Arabic word for "lewdness" in verses 4:15 and 4:25 and the Arabic word for fornication in 24:2?


Now, read carefully - 24:2-3, 4:15 and 4:25 all refer to fornication.

Well, only 24:2 says fornication. The other verses say "lewdness". No translator uses fornication in their translations of verses 4:15 and 4:25.


First, 4:15 was revealed where no punishment was specified

What does permanent home confinement mean to you?

Are you simply saying that Muslims should no longer follow what verse 4:15 says?

Then what is the punishment for lewdness that falls outside fornication?

[shaad_lko]

But seriously, what's the Arabic word for "lewdness" in verses 4:15 and 4:25 and the Arabic word for fornication in 24:2?

As I said before the style and construction of the phrase makes it clear that both are referring to the same. Well, actually 4:15 is more specific to prostitutes who indulge in rampant lewdness. You could read more here (in the section on fornication): http://www.monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=444


Well, only 24:2 says fornication. The other verses say "lewdness". No translator uses fornication in their translations of verses 4:15 and 4:25.

translators may have to be literal. Check the link above..


What does permanent home confinement mean to you?

Are you simply saying that Muslims should no longer follow what verse 4:15 says?

there are several such temporary verses in the Quran- those referring to gradual prohibition of alcohol, usury, etc. For me, its part of Divine wisdom to not impose something upon a society which it is incapable of bearing.


Then what is the punishment for lewdness that falls outside fornication?
If its rampant lewdness, then it falls under the category of spreading disorder in the land, and hence punishable by execution. Else, its upto the society to form its own law..

People may preach tolerance, but the paragon of virtue is the Prophet of God.

[Polog]

there are several such temporary verses in the Quran- those referring to gradual prohibition of alcohol, usury, etc. For me, its part of Divine wisdom to not impose something upon a society which it is incapable of bearing.

I am under the impression that the "temporary" verses focus on the moral rather than legislative portions. In this sense they are not temporary, but rather revealed as they become relevant. I think that the wisdom is still there.

[shaad_lko]

you've hit the nail on the head ! Quran as a manual for moral, spiritual and collective reformation and transformation.

[Polog]

Good. I was unsure of what you were trying to say. "Temporary" typically implies that they get replaced with something else. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better word.

[shaad_lko]

i think its more proper to say that the Quranic prohibitions were revealed in stages keeping in mind the moral capacity of its immediate addressees - alcohol, usury, etc were not discarded out of the blue..

[Pipman]

i think its more proper to say that the Quranic prohibitions were revealed in stages keeping in mind the moral capacity of its immediate addressees - alcohol, usury, etc were not discarded out of the blue..

There is nothing called slave girls. Slavery is forbidden by the Koran. Alcohol is not prohibited except if it leads you to lose control of yourself. Usury is forbidden in the Koran if its done with the intention of exploitation.

[shaad_lko]

Alcohol is not prohibited except if it leads you to lose control of yourself. Usury is forbidden in the Koran if its done with the intention of exploitation.

as per your interpretation which I am under no obligation to follow..

[Pipman]

as per your interpretation which I am under no obligation to follow..

Definition of USURY
1archaic : interest
2: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates 3: an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of money

O ye who believe! devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that ye may prosper. 3: 130

Here the Koran clarifies that usury of the kind where the interest atatched to the laon is excessive and exploitative is prohibited. Nobody will give money for someone they do not know unless they can require some benefit, but the benefit must not be excessive to the point where a person, in his deperation, is forced to take a loan and pay a price probably for his life time.

For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them; in that they hindered many from Allah's way. That they took usury though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully; We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment. Qur'an 4: 160 - 161.

The exploitive nature of Jewish usury invariably alienated the Christian populace. The Cortes of Portugal, for instance, complained in 1361 that Jewish usury was becoming "an unbearable yoke upon the population." [LEON, p. 165] Guido Kisch, in a probable understatement, notes that "the continual complaints against Jewish moneylenders, coming from all classes of the medieval population, particularly in the 14th and 15th centuries, necessarily made the Jew an unpopular figure." [KISCH, p. 328] Usurious Jews who did no physical labor, who were segregated in their own communities, who did not serve in the local military, and who were agents of the hated aristocracy, were commonly accused of parasitism by local non-Jewish populaces. "Jewish money lending," says Salo Baron, "[was a] lucrative business ... For the most part, the accepted rate ranged between 33 and 43 per cent, although sometimes they went up to double and treble those percentages, or more ... When the European economy entered a period of deceleration in the late thirteenth century, further aggravated by recurrent famine and pestilence, such exorbitant charges, though economically doubly justified because of the increased risks, created widespread hostility." [BARON, EHoJ, p. 45] Money lending was not usually for a borrower's business expenses or expansion, but for subsistence survival. [MACDONALD, p. 263] We are talking about desperate people who often enough stood to perish from their web of increasing debt.

"It was not luxury needs," says Abram Leon, "but the direct distress which forced the peasant or the artisan to borrow from the Jewish usurer. They pawned their working tools which were often indispensable to assure their livelihood. It is easy to understand the hatred that the man of the people must have felt for the Jew in whom he saw the direct cause of his ruin ... [LEON, p. 171] In this role as petty usurers exploiting the people, [Jews] were often victims of bloody uprisings..." [LEON, p. 83] [uprisings that were] "first and foremost efforts to destroy the letters of credit which were in [Jewish] possession." [LEON, p. 171]

In 1431, for instance, armed peasants demanded that the city of Worms surrender its Jews to them, "in view of the fact that they had ruined [the peasants] and taken away their last shirt." [LEON, p. 172]

Usury was in fact considered immoral by Jews too. The great Jewish theologian, Maimonides, wrote "why is [usury] called nesek [biting]? Because he who takes it bites his fellow, causes pain to him, and eats his flesh." [MINKIN, p. 362] Usury was forbidden to Jews, as well as Christians, in the Old Testament. (The Islamic Quran also expressly states its prohibition of "interest.") But there was a qualifier. Jews conjured a double moral standard; usury upon others in their own community was prohibited, but usury upon non-Jews was acceptable. The Torah states that one cannot practice usury upon a brother, but can to a stranger. [DEUTERONOMY, 23:20] Who is a brother and who is a stranger? "Brother," in Jewish religious teachings means "Jew." "Stranger" is anyone else.

http://radioislam.org/thetruth/04usury.htm

As can be seen, the reason why the Koran condemned the Jewish practice of usury was because it took advantage of the poor who often had no other means to solve a dire situation except by looking for loans. But rather than be fair, many Jewish merchants had contempt for the gentile culture and imposed harsh and economivcally devestating conditions on the borrower knowing he is too depserate to refuse.

So Riba is wrong if its done in excessive and done in a way that is expoitative. Interest needs to be regulated by law to ensure proper standards and proper rates.

As far as alcohol, Muslim authorities tell us that alcohol was not intially outlawed by the Koran. Then they say it was outlawed. The Koran does not play dice. If you look at the verses of the Koran regarding alcohol you will see the Koran focussed on two main areas regarding alcohol consumption. Prayers and animosity between people. The Koran says that satan used alcohol to make us forget or abanson our prayers (in a state of drunkeness) or he makes us quarrel and fight each other, also in a state of drunkeness. There is no reason to fear alcohol if its done moderately and if you can handle alcohol. Some people can handle alcohol better than others. Obese people go on diet and they make sugars and fatty foods prohibited for themselves, they do that for their own health. However many people eat foods like this but do not grow obese. Every person must prohibit for himself that he sees is harmful for him. Money can create enormous conflict and animosity between people. Nations often go to war over wealth and resorces (the Koran only allowed defensive warfare) but we do not say that money is bad so lets ablosih it. The communist system failed because it did not understand human nature, money can motivate some people to do more and it can be a reward to some people. Without it it can create more problems.

The reason why Muslim authorities see alcohol is prohibited has nothing to do with their analysis of the Koran. To say that the Koran did not forbid alcohol but did so later is not Koranic. We know the Koran tells us when something was prohibited but allowed later and alcohol is not one of them. Usually when the Koran prohibits something and then allows it later it explains it as the case with eating meat and marriage. It has to do with the sprcifics of the Medina community and their interaction with the pagans. We can learn from all this but these specifics are not specifics that relate to us today as each one of us has his own journey. The reason why they probit alcohol has more to do with this:

6397. Yazid ibn Khusayfa related that as-Sa'ib ibn Yazid said, "In the time of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, the rule of Abu Bakr and the beginning of the khalifate of 'Umar, when we were brought someone who had drink, we would go to him with our hands, sandals and cloak. At the end of the rule of 'Umar, he inflicted forty lashes and when people became impudent, and impious, he gave eighty lashes.

6392. Ibn Abi Mulayka related that 'Uqba ibn al-Harith said, "An-Nu'man, or the son of an-Nu'man, was brought on account of drinking and the Prophet,may Allah bless him and grant him peace, commanded that they beat him in the house. They beat him, and I was one of those who beat him with sandals."

6393. 'Abdullah ibn Abi Mulayka related from 'Uqba ibn al-Harith that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was brought Nu'aym or the son of Nu'aym who was drunk. That was hard on him and he commanded those in the house to beat him. They beat him with stalks and sandals. I was one of those who beat him."

6398. Aslam related from 'Umar ibn al-Khattab that in the time of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, there was a man named 'Abdullah who was called "the Donkey" and who used to make the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, laugh. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, flogged him for drinking. One day he was brought and he commanded that he be lashed. A man among the people said, 'O Allah, curse him! How often he is brought on account of it!' The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Do not curse him. By Allah, I only know that he loves Allah and His Messenger.'"

This is where they get the idea about alcohol. Lashing is considered in the Koran to be torture (azhab) and is only mentioned when it came to adultery and the slandering of women. The koran made the criteria for the slanderer much easier for him to be tortured than it did for the adulterers. The Koran only gave authority for humans to hold other humans into account if there is some harm to someone else. So the Koran can never say punish someone for drinking or not fasting or for disbelieving since the Koran gave humans the freedom to disbelieve and mock God and His prophets. Adultery is an act of betrayal against someone else that you have an obligation towards and whom you made an aoth with. Slandering is accusing others of sexual misconduct and ruining of reputation of someone else and creating fitna between other parties.

What those hadith I quoted does is it makes sins punishable. Something the prophet was never given authority for. He has authoirty only over crimes against another.

The Koran is freedom and wisdom.

[shaad_lko]

Definition of USURY
1archaic : interest
2: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates 3: an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of money

O ye who believe! devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that ye may prosper. 3: 130

Here the Koran clarifies that usury of the kind where the interest atatched to the laon is excessive and exploitative is prohibited. Nobody will give money for someone they do not know unless they can require some benefit, but the benefit must not be excessive to the point where a person, in his deperation, is forced to take a loan and pay a price probably for his life time.

For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them; in that they hindered many from Allah's way. That they took usury though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully; We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment. Qur'an 4: 160 - 161.

The exploitive nature of Jewish usury invariably alienated the Christian populace. The Cortes of Portugal, for instance, complained in 1361 that Jewish usury was becoming "an unbearable yoke upon the population." [LEON, p. 165] Guido Kisch, in a probable understatement, notes that "the continual complaints against Jewish moneylenders, coming from all classes of the medieval population, particularly in the 14th and 15th centuries, necessarily made the Jew an unpopular figure." [KISCH, p. 328] Usurious Jews who did no physical labor, who were segregated in their own communities, who did not serve in the local military, and who were agents of the hated aristocracy, were commonly accused of parasitism by local non-Jewish populaces. "Jewish money lending," says Salo Baron, "[was a] lucrative business ... For the most part, the accepted rate ranged between 33 and 43 per cent, although sometimes they went up to double and treble those percentages, or more ... When the European economy entered a period of deceleration in the late thirteenth century, further aggravated by recurrent famine and pestilence, such exorbitant charges, though economically doubly justified because of the increased risks, created widespread hostility." [BARON, EHoJ, p. 45] Money lending was not usually for a borrower's business expenses or expansion, but for subsistence survival. [MACDONALD, p. 263] We are talking about desperate people who often enough stood to perish from their web of increasing debt.

"It was not luxury needs," says Abram Leon, "but the direct distress which forced the peasant or the artisan to borrow from the Jewish usurer. They pawned their working tools which were often indispensable to assure their livelihood. It is easy to understand the hatred that the man of the people must have felt for the Jew in whom he saw the direct cause of his ruin ... [LEON, p. 171] In this role as petty usurers exploiting the people, [Jews] were often victims of bloody uprisings..." [LEON, p. 83] [uprisings that were] "first and foremost efforts to destroy the letters of credit which were in [Jewish] possession." [LEON, p. 171]

In 1431, for instance, armed peasants demanded that the city of Worms surrender its Jews to them, "in view of the fact that they had ruined [the peasants] and taken away their last shirt." [LEON, p. 172]

Usury was in fact considered immoral by Jews too. The great Jewish theologian, Maimonides, wrote "why is [usury] called nesek [biting]? Because he who takes it bites his fellow, causes pain to him, and eats his flesh." [MINKIN, p. 362] Usury was forbidden to Jews, as well as Christians, in the Old Testament. (The Islamic Quran also expressly states its prohibition of "interest.") But there was a qualifier. Jews conjured a double moral standard; usury upon others in their own community was prohibited, but usury upon non-Jews was acceptable. The Torah states that one cannot practice usury upon a brother, but can to a stranger. [DEUTERONOMY, 23:20] Who is a brother and who is a stranger? "Brother," in Jewish religious teachings means "Jew." "Stranger" is anyone else.

http://radioislam.org/thetruth/04usury.htm

As can be seen, the reason why the Koran condemned the Jewish practice of usury was because it took advantage of the poor who often had no other means to solve a dire situation except by looking for loans. But rather than be fair, many Jewish merchants had contempt for the gentile culture and imposed harsh and economivcally devestating conditions on the borrower knowing he is too depserate to refuse.

So Riba is wrong if its done in excessive and done in a way that is expoitative. Interest needs to be regulated by law to ensure proper standards and proper rates.

wow! the Quran is condemning Jews who would charge interest in the future in Europe- your logic is too awesome to comment upon..:huh:

Riba, in the classical terminology is an excess amount charged for any kind of loan, whether it is for business or livelihood purposes. There is no regulated Riba, though if you want to talk about stuff like inflation (which is a modern reality), then one can consider Riba temporarily permissible in some cases, but it can never be an ideal Islamic viewpoint.


As far as alcohol, Muslim authorities tell us that alcohol was not intially outlawed by the Koran. Then they say it was outlawed. The Koran does not play dice. If you look at the verses of the Koran regarding alcohol you will see the Koran focussed on two main areas regarding alcohol consumption. Prayers and animosity between people. The Koran says that satan used alcohol to make us forget or abanson our prayers (in a state of drunkeness) or he makes us quarrel and fight each other, also in a state of drunkeness. There is no reason to fear alcohol if its done moderately and if you can handle alcohol. Some people can handle alcohol better than others. Obese people go on diet and they make sugars and fatty foods prohibited for themselves, they do that for their own health. However many people eat foods like this but do not grow obese. Every person must prohibit for himself that he sees is harmful for him. Money can create enormous conflict and animosity between people. Nations often go to war over wealth and resorces (the Koran only allowed defensive warfare) but we do not say that money is bad so lets ablosih it. The communist system failed because it did not understand human nature, money can motivate some people to do more and it can be a reward to some people. Without it it can create more problems.
sure dude alcohol is permissible, what next - idol worship ? You know people who worship them dont do so because they believe in polytheism. They do so for concentration..


The reason why Muslim authorities see alcohol is prohibited has nothing to do with their analysis of the Koran. To say that the Koran did not forbid alcohol but did so later is not Koranic. We know the Koran tells us when something was prohibited but allowed later and alcohol is not one of them. Usually when the Koran prohibits something and then allows it later it explains it as the case with eating meat and marriage.
yeah, it wasnt allowed later.. isnt there inconsistency in your statements?


This is where they get the idea about alcohol. Lashing is considered in the Koran to be torture (azhab) and is only mentioned when it came to adultery and the slandering of women. The koran made the criteria for the slanderer much easier for him to be tortured than it did for the adulterers. The Koran only gave authority for humans to hold other humans into account if there is some harm to someone else. So the Koran can never say punish someone for drinking or not fasting or for disbelieving since the Koran gave humans the freedom to disbelieve and mock God and His prophets. Adultery is an act of betrayal against someone else that you have an obligation towards and whom you made an aoth with. Slandering is accusing others of sexual misconduct and ruining of reputation of someone else and creating fitna between other parties.
Quran doesnt give a comprehensive law anyway, you wont be able to do anything with literalism. No, it doesnt give any freedom to mock God and His prophets -freedom from disbelief maybe, but not freedom to mock..


What those hadith I quoted does is it makes sins punishable. Something the prophet was never given authority for. He has authoirty only over crimes against another.
So are you saying the ahadith are wrong, or are you saying that the Prophet overstepped his limits ?


The Koran is freedom and wisdom.
sure, but the straight way is the way of those whom God has favoured, those who were sincere and humble and had their breast expanded for truth and certainty of faith.

[Pipman]

wow! the Quran is condemning Jews who would charge interest in the future in Europe- your logic is too awesome to comment upon..:huh:

Riba, in the classical terminology is an excess amount charged for any kind of loan, whether it is for business or livelihood purposes. There is no regulated Riba, though if you want to talk about stuff like inflation (which is a modern reality), then one can consider Riba temporarily permissible in some cases, but it can never be an ideal Islamic viewpoint.


sure dude alcohol is permissible, what next - idol worship ? You know people who worship them dont do so because they believe in polytheism. They do so for concentration..


yeah, it wasnt allowed later.. isnt there inconsistency in your statements?


Quran doesnt give a comprehensive law anyway, you wont be able to do anything with literalism. No, it doesnt give any freedom to mock God and His prophets -freedom from disbelief maybe, but not freedom to mock..


So are you saying the ahadith are wrong, or are you saying that the Prophet overstepped his limits ?


sure, but the straight way is the way of those whom God has favoured, those who were sincere and humble and had their breast expanded for truth and certainty of faith.

What I am saying is that later Muslim authorities wanting to give Muslim rulers absolute power and authority so they elevated the prophet's authority to divine authority and then this authority can now be transfered to the ruler. Either these hadiths are not accurate or we are to assume that Muhamad disobeyed his lord. I am inclined to believe the former.

The reason why the Koran condemned Jews use of usury is not just about Europe, this practice the Jews had is embeded in the Talmud. The Koran condemned the Talmud and so did Jesus in the Gospel. Both the Koran and Jesus confirmed the Torah and previous scriptures.

The Koran does give freedom to mock, it repeatedly orders the prophet that if he hears people mock God's scriptures that he should abstain from them and avoid them.

"He has already revealed to you in the Scripture, that when you hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, you are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme. If you did, you would be like them..." (Qur'an 4:140)

[The Noble Quran 6:68] If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people

The Koran does give a comprehensive law and it offers us guidelines. Justice is to be applied by the law of equity(eye for an eye and soul for a soul). The punishment should always fit the crime. The Koran says we should apply justice (adl) and equity (qist). That is why the symbol of justice is the scale. The Koran says we should judge between people by the scale. The punishment should always fi the crime, an eye for an eye and a soul for a soul. That is why later Muslim authorities had to introduce the stoning of adultery and apostasy law outside of the Koran since they both violate the soul for a soul and apostasy law violates the freedom the Koran ordered also. The Koran stipulates that only for intentional murder can capital punisment be administered but it allows for a lower ceiling like exile from the community. Muslim authorities claimed that the verses about capital punishment is talking about "haraba", which means warfare. If its warfare the they ae prisoners of war. The Koran gave two options for prisoners of war, freedom or ransom of some sort. Later Muslim authorities introduce two more criteria, enslavement of female prisoners and capital punishment. Slavery is acts performed by tyrants in the Koran like the Pharoah and Joseph's brothers, while the execution of prisoners violates the Koran conmmands. The Koran placed prisoners in the category of charity and ordered the prophet to console them and protect them.

I am not sure what you mean about the alcohol part and as far as idol worshiping, the Koran says do not come near prayers when you are intoxicated and says alcohol has benefits and harm but its harm is worse. It also says that alcohol can be used by the devil to make us neglect our prayers and create animosity between us. All of this can be avoided if alcohol mis used moderately and responsibly. Muslim authorities howver came with lashing hadiths and also with some hadith that says alcohol consumers are cursed, their is also a hadith that says even a drop of alocohol is haram. So the Koran looks at alcohol in terms of what it can lead to while Muslim authorities see it as an end by itself.

Who gave the prophet authority to persecute and lash people for drinking alcohol and why should a person who drinks alcohol be cursed? There are believers who drink alcohol and they are disbelievers who drink alcohol. Alcohol doe not give any indication about a person's faith or character, so why Should God look at it as such? What the Koran is worried about is how the devil can use a person when intoxicate to make him do things he other wise won't do. But the devil can use many tools like women, fame, fortune, fear, and also he can use the fear of poverty and in Adam's case he used false promises of eternity or superior creation.

I am surprised you compare this with idol worship.

[shaad_lko]

What I am saying is that later Muslim authorities wanting to give Muslim rulers absolute power and authority so they elevated the prophet's authority to divine authority and then this authority can now be transfered to the ruler. Either these hadiths are not accurate or we are to assume that Muhamad disobeyed his lord. I am inclined to believe the former.
while your assertion about theological justification of Muslim rulers may be true to some extent, there were always some ulama who opposed any wrong committed by the ruling elite. Further, it is also possible that the Hadith are true and one of the Prophet's functions was to judge on any disputes arising in the community. If Quran is silent on a matter (like punishment for alcohol) there is no disobedience to Allah if Muhammad (pbuh) announces a verdict on the same.


The reason why the Koran condemned Jews use of usury is not just about Europe, this practice the Jews had is embeded in the Talmud. The Koran condemned the Talmud and so did Jesus in the Gospel. Both the Koran and Jesus confirmed the Torah and previous scriptures.
yes, but Riba is a well-known Arabic term which was understood perfectly to mean any excess over the original principal, so it does cover all sorts of loans where interest is charged.


The Koran does give freedom to mock, it repeatedly orders the prophet that if he hears people mock God's scriptures that he should abstain from them and avoid them.

"He has already revealed to you in the Scripture, that when you hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, you are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme. If you did, you would be like them..." (Qur'an 4:140)

[The Noble Quran 6:68] If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people
this is again contextual. In a society, there are always some rules to prevent disorder and hurting others' emotions. Otherwise, there was no need to cleanse Arabia of polytheism.


The Koran stipulates that only for intentional murder can capital punisment be administered but it allows for a lower ceiling like exile from the community. Muslim authorities claimed that the verses about capital punishment is talking about "haraba", which means warfare. If its warfare the they ae prisoners of war. The Koran gave two options for prisoners of war, freedom or ransom of some sort. Later Muslim authorities introduce two more criteria, enslavement of female prisoners and capital punishment. Slavery is acts performed by tyrants in the Koran like the Pharoah and Joseph's brothers, while the execution of prisoners violates the Koran conmmands. The Koran placed prisoners in the category of charity and ordered the prophet to console them and protect them.
you're all mixed up here- 5:33-34 clarify quite clearly that capital punishment is also for haraba, and here it means not war between two parties but spreading anarchy in the society, which would include rampant prostitution. For war, I agree Quran does not promote slavery anywhere..


I am not sure what you mean about the alcohol part and as far as idol worshiping, the Koran says do not come near prayers when you are intoxicated and says alcohol has benefits and harm but its harm is worse. It also says that alcohol can be used by the devil to make us neglect our prayers and create animosity between us. All of this can be avoided if alcohol mis used moderately and responsibly. Muslim authorities howver came with lashing hadiths and also with some hadith that says alcohol consumers are cursed, their is also a hadith that says even a drop of alocohol is haram. So the Koran looks at alcohol in terms of what it can lead to while Muslim authorities see it as an end by itself.

Who gave the prophet authority to persecute and lash people for drinking alcohol and why should a person who drinks alcohol be cursed? There are believers who drink alcohol and they are disbelievers who drink alcohol. Alcohol doe not give any indication about a person's faith or character, so why Should God look at it as such? What the Koran is worried about is how the devil can use a person when intoxicate to make him do things he other wise won't do. But the devil can use many tools like women, fame, fortune, fear, and also he can use the fear of poverty and in Adam's case he used false promises of eternity or superior creation.

I am surprised you compare this with idol worship.

Alcohol is not prohibited due to any Hadith but directly in the Quran itself (5:90) - it is an abomination devised by satan. My comparing it with idol-worship is precisely because a rational argument can be made about idol-worship too just like you make the case for alcohol here. As for the punishment for drinking, Quran being silent on it doesnt mean taht the Prophet (pbuh) or later Muslims cannot devise something about it, though that particular punishment doesnt acquire the status of Sharia.

[Pipman]

If you look at verse 5:33 it came in the context of the story of the two sons of Adam and intentional murder. Perhhaps you interpret "those who war against God and His messenger" as meaning Qital. The Koran hwoever uses the verm Qital for physical warfare and not harb. War here is like the war on poverty or the war on drugs. The Quran uses harb to also indicate that those who pursue Riba are at harb with God. So you are interpreting wrong. There is nothing called haraba.

27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.

28. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."

30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.

31. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.

28. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."

30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.

31. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

"execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land"

Execution is the highest ceiling (soul for a soul) and exile from the community is the lowest ceiling (like life imprisonment).

Haraba whatever it is is considered prisoners of war. Here the Koran gave two criteria, either freedom or ransom. I am nt sure what this haraba is but there is no definition for it. Either people kill intentionally or unintentionally (the Koran says that unintentional should be dealt with by money) or are prisoners in a war.

[shaad_lko]

If you look at verse 5:33 it came in the context of the story of the two sons of Adam and intentional murder. Perhhaps you interpret "those who war against God and His messenger" as meaning Qital. The Koran hwoever uses the verm Qital for physical warfare and not harb. War here is like the war on poverty or the war on drugs. The Quran uses harb to also indicate that those who pursue Riba are at harb with God. So you are interpreting wrong. There is nothing called haraba.

I dont really need to interpret anything because haraba is the term used by the Quran itself - please read in Arabic 5:33 (I dont know if you know Arabic or not..). Also, Quran itself clarifies that the term here refers to causing corruption in the land (in the same verse).


"execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land"

Execution is the highest ceiling (soul for a soul) and exile from the community is the lowest ceiling (like life imprisonment).
agreed.


Haraba whatever it is is considered prisoners of war. Here the Koran gave two criteria, either freedom or ransom. I am nt sure what this haraba is but there is no definition for it. Either people kill intentionally or unintentionally (the Koran says that unintentional should be dealt with by money) or are prisoners in a war.
No, there is a third crime of causing mischief and disorder in the land which has the same punishment as murder. In fact, capital punishment is only for these two crimes (murder and spreading anarchy). War and prisoners of war is a different issue as you correctly pointed out.

[Pipman]

don't know what you mean by anarchy. This is the term used by Bashar Al Assad and Qaddafi and Husni Mubarak against the protesters. Its a very vague word. There is nothing in the Koran called haraba.

This concept is not a Koarnic concept and came from this hadith:

24:577] Narrated Anas: Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (See Hadith No. 234, Vol. 1)

Now if these individuals were not executed then this is consistent with the Koran as amputationw as used instead of capital punishment. However if they were left dead than this violates the Koran as the Koran prescribed amputation as an alternative (and not an addition) to capital punishment.


However there is nothing in the Koran called haraba. This hadith is talking about murder and possibly theft.

You can amputate for muder as a way to spare someone capital punishment. Howvere Muslim authorities applied amputation for theft also. This violates the equal retribution in the Koran. A hand is for a hand like an eye is for an eye. The punishment should always fir the crime and amputation can done in the Koran for murder but not for theft unless someone steals or robs something of equal value to a human's hand.

Muslim authorities interpret "cut their hands" as meaning amputation yet we know in the story of Joseph that the women "cut their hands" when they saw Joseph. I don't think you believe it means amputation. Amputation in arabic is not "qata'" but "batara".

Linguistic interpretation of the Koran will always produce wrong interpretation, you have to look at the foundation of the Koran and the context verses and topics appear in. The Koran must be read as a whole and not in bits and pieces.

Verse 5:33 is clearly a verse that comments on the Cain and Abel story and not some vague anarchy and chaos etc

[shaad_lko]

don't know what you mean by anarchy. This is the term used by Bashar Al Assad and Qaddafi and Husni Mubarak against the protesters. Its a very vague word. There is nothing in the Koran called haraba.
then I dont know which Koran you are referring to.


This concept is not a Koarnic concept and came from this hadith:

24:577] Narrated Anas: Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (See Hadith No. 234, Vol. 1)

Now if these individuals were not executed then this is consistent with the Koran as amputationw as used instead of capital punishment. However if they were left dead than this violates the Koran as the Koran prescribed amputation as an alternative (and not an addition) to capital punishment.


However there is nothing in the Koran called haraba. This hadith is talking about murder and possibly theft.
The Hadith is merely explaining the Quran, dear friend.. Can you read Arabic or not? If yes, then please re-read 5:32-34 and you will know what Haraba is and what is Fasad.


You can amputate for muder as a way to spare someone capital punishment. Howvere Muslim authorities applied amputation for theft also. This violates the equal retribution in the Koran. A hand is for a hand like an eye is for an eye. The punishment should always fir the crime and amputation can done in the Koran for murder but not for theft unless someone steals or robs something of equal value to a human's hand.

wow! great exegesis, but how do you determine value of a human hand? So Qisas applies to theft, per your logic..


Muslim authorities interpret "cut their hands" as meaning amputation yet we know in the story of Joseph that the women "cut their hands" when they saw Joseph. I don't think you believe it means amputation. Amputation in arabic is not "qata'" but "batara".

amputation is qata, and it is not for any theft (if that's what your problem is) but for a thorough and complete theft over a certain value, and certainly the analogy of Qisas is not used here. In any case the punishments are all outer limits for the crimes mentioned, and not necessary to be applied always.


Linguistic interpretation of the Koran will always produce wrong interpretation, you have to look at the foundation of the Koran and the context verses and topics appear in. The Koran must be read as a whole and not in bits and pieces.

right, and who better than you to tell us what is the foundation of the Quran..


Verse 5:33 is clearly a verse that comments on the Cain and Abel story and not some vague anarchy and chaos etc
no it is not vague at all..