The Creation of the Universe

[bdb85]

What do Muslims/the Koran say about the creation of the universe? Does it believe, as Christians do, that it was created in 6 days? Is there any indication as to how old the earth actually is in the Koran?

[abd-allah]

salaam alaikum,
bdb85, As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter One, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.

When the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.

and the bible says God created the universe in six days and rested on the seventh day. (Genesis 1:1 to 2:2) but the creator of the universe has not rested according to koran, koran says surah 10 verse 3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition?

hope i have answered your question.......

[bdb85]

Thank you for your answer.
I have to say, that even though I am not Muslim (or really Christian either-I stopped going to church some time ago) this version of creation is much more reasonable than the explinations other religions argue, such as the absurdity of the Universe being created in 6 24 hour days, or of the Earth being only 10,000 years old.
It is good to see that there is a religion that acknowledges the true age of the universe, it seems to go along very much with scientific findings on this subject.

This brings me to a more general question--is there anything in the Koran, or in Muslim belief, that would come in conflict with what is written in most High School level Biology books (besides the fact that these books do not speak of God), such as evolution, the way in which the universe was formed, etc?

[abd-allah]

Thank you for your answer.
I have to say, that even though I am not Muslim (or really Christian either-I stopped going to church some time ago) this version of creation is much more reasonable than the explinations other religions argue, such as the absurdity of the Universe being created in 6 24 hour days, or of the Earth being only 10,000 years old.
It is good to see that there is a religion that acknowledges the true age of the universe, it seems to go along very much with scientific findings on this subject.

This brings me to a more general question--is there anything in the Koran, or in Muslim belief, that would come in conflict with what is written in most High School level Biology books (besides the fact that these books do not speak of God), such as evolution, the way in which the universe was formed, etc?
Quran says a community was cursed to become monkeys and the science says man is evolved from the monkeys , i cannot believe that adam and eve were monkeys or apes ...
you better visit these sites , i am sure if you are a truth seeker you will become a muslim within few days , you can even ask questions on these sites ,sites are as follows:

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/science/
http://www.islam-guide.com/
http://www.beconvinced.com/SPEECHES.htm

please do reply me about these sites................

[Hischam Khan]

bdb85,

A most hearty welcome, I hope you will have a long and joyful stay with us, God willing. ;)

I thought you may like to have a read through an answer recently posted on the main site. It's a bit long but I take it you have quite an interest in this topic so I really think you'll find it of interest. It's called 'The Theory of Natural Selection and the Existence of God' (http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=3194). I think it touches upon the topic you are taking about (evolution) but incase I'm mistaken, let me know as it may have been another one and I'll be sure to then provide it Inshallah.

peace.

[MF]

the science says man is evolved from the monkeys , i cannot believe that adam and eve were monkeys or apes ...

"If someone advocates that the modern synthesis of evolution posits that humans come from monkeys, you can be sure that they do not understand what evolutionary theory actually is." (wonderful quote from Vajradhara)
http://forums.understanding-islam.org/community/showthread.php?t=434

Some muslims scholars accept parts of evolution and reject parts. For example they accept adaptation but reject life as the result of coincidence, but that would not come in conflict with what is written in most High School level Biology books.. if you read the creation of adam and eva as a metaphor.

[bdb85]

Well, I must say that Muslims seem much more reasonable than Christians on this issue. I also appreciate that they see religion and science as complimentary to one another, instead of as seperate and in competiton with one another.

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Br. Benjamin,

Please read the following:
http://www.creationofuniverse.com/
The authour happens to be a big opponent of evoloution, but the link from Hischam puts things into prespective nicely.

Also:
http://www.kyaz.com/English/ModernScience.html

[Ahmed Waheed]

Assalam . . .

:cool: Jazak-Allah. The two sites do sound quite interesting and Insha-Allah I'll take a look if they start working here. Their not working properly in my place; they just start flickerring on the screen abit and then exit Internet Explorer. :eek:

:biggrin: However that's not gonna stop me from adding to this thread. :p Firstly, let us look at it from the Quranic view point. The Quran expresses such info in the most beautiful ways. e.g. for that would be "BIG BANG"; refer to Surah al-Anbiyah 21: verse 30 and onwards for abit more info.

Wassalam . . .

[Vajradhara]

Thank you for your answer.
I have to say, that even though I am not Muslim (or really Christian either-I stopped going to church some time ago) this version of creation is much more reasonable than the explinations other religions argue, such as the absurdity of the Universe being created in 6 24 hour days, or of the Earth being only 10,000 years old.
It is good to see that there is a religion that acknowledges the true age of the universe, it seems to go along very much with scientific findings on this subject.

This brings me to a more general question--is there anything in the Koran, or in Muslim belief, that would come in conflict with what is written in most High School level Biology books (besides the fact that these books do not speak of God), such as evolution, the way in which the universe was formed, etc?
hmm...

did you know that both Sanatana Dharma and Buddha Dharma are the only religious paths on earth that have a correct time scale for the observed age of the universe? both of the Dharmas put the beginning of this cycle about 14 billion years ago.

the Mayans also have a view that is quite long in time, though they are only in the millions of years.

interestingly, the Mayan calendar ends on Dec 24, 2012 where "time will begin again" as they say.

[Vajradhara]

oh... and i should like to say that, by and large, the majority of Christians in the world do not hold the same views as the American Evangelica movement, which insists on a literal 6 Day creation and Special Creation.

most of the Christians from Europe are quite bewildered about their American brethren and sistern in their approach to the Bible and, by and large, they do not share their views concerning the YEC (Young Earth CreationISM) theories.

there are many Christians that are open to science and it's methodologies and so forth. the erstwhile Charles Darwin was a Christian, for instance, as well as the bloke that coined the phrase "Big Bang".

interestingly, that phrase "big bang" was coined to ridicule the theory of Rapid Inflation of the Universe, which stood in opposition to the Stead State theory of the time.

for my Muslim friends. if you pin your creation accounts to the Rapid Inflationary theory, how do you reconcile Super String or the No Boundary Proposal? moreover, if the Rapid Inflationary theory turns out to be incorrect, and we're seeing more and more evidence for this, how will that impact your view of Al Qur'an?

[Ansar Al-Haq]

hmm...

did you know that both Sanatana Dharma and Buddha Dharma are the only religious paths on earth that have a correct time scale for the observed age of the universe? both of the Dharmas put the beginning of this cycle about 14 billion years ago.
Could you provide some evidence for this? Some quotes from scriptures?


if you pin your creation accounts to the Rapid Inflationary theory, how do you reconcile Super String or the No Boundary Proposal? moreover, if the Rapid Inflationary theory turns out to be incorrect, and we're seeing more and more evidence for this, how will that impact your view of Al Qur'an?

It only affects our interpretation of the Qur'an.

Anyway, the string theories have their problems too. And to my knowledge, the No Boundary Proposal adds to the knowledge we have from the Big Bang theory. Hawking says:
...the universe has not existed for ever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began, would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, spacetime is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge.* (Sahih ;) )

Science is like a maze. It takes turns. I use to think that the scientific miracles of the Qur'an were the miracles for the people of this age and that the linguistic miracles were for people before. But these miracles are only secondary. The true miracle of the Qur'an is:
THE MIRACLE OF SUPREME GUIDANCE
Anyone who reads the Qur'an with understanding, or perhaps Ulool Al-Baab, know what I am talking about.

The Qur'an detects the thoughts of the reader and provides hundreds of answers in every single verse to whatever we are thinking about. God speaks to us through the Qur'an.

thats all for now...
Ansar

[Ansar Al-Haq]

In A Brief History of Time Hawking writes:

One could say: "The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary." The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE.

36:82. Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is!

36:83. So Glorified is He and Exalted above all that they associate with Him, and in Whose Hands is the dominion of all things, and to Him you shall be returned.

Also, hawking says:
I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there's another kind of time, imaginary time, at right angles to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end. This would mean that the way the universe began would be determined by the laws of physics. One wouldn't have to say that God chose to set the universe going in some arbitrary way that we couldn't understand. It says nothing about whether or not God exists - just that He isn't arbitrary.

and:
...I thought the no boundary proposal, implied that the universe had to be spatially closed, and finite in size. But a few months ago, Neil Turok and I, were talking about his ideas on open inflation. We realized that they could be fitted in with the no boundary proposal. The universe would still be closed and finite, in one way of looking at it. But in another, it would appear open and infinite.*

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Verses of the Qur'an on time:

76:1. Has there not been over man a period of time, when he was nothing to be mentioned?

45:24 And they say: "What is there but our life in this world? We shall die and we live, and nothing but time can destroy us." But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture:

39:5 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

more to come later insha'allah.

[hasan]

http://forums.understanding-islam.org/community/showpost.php?p=9189&postcount=15

[Vajradhara]

In A Brief History of Time Hawking writes:


i would strongly suggest you read their later works in this field.

though Dr. Hawkings lecture site is a bit more up to date, which you can reference here:

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html

unfortunately, this section of the forum does presume, as they state:
"These lectures assume a level of Physics which is of at least at University Degree level."



there is another section of the site which is more geared towards the lay people, much like a "Brief History..." is.

[Vajradhara]

Could you provide some evidence for this? Some quotes from scriptures?
sure... how much do you want to read?

[Ansar Al-Haq]

enough to prove your point from your authentic scriptures.

Thanks.

[Vajradhara]

hmm... let's try these and see if they sate your curiousity:


http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Hindu_Cosmology.htm

here's an interview with Dr. Sagan where he talks about it:

http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/29sagan.htm

this is a good article that talks about the cosmology and defines some of the terms and so forth:

http://www.vedanta-newyork.org/articles/cosmology_in_vedanta.htm

one of the essential points to bear in mind is that, within the Indian paradigm, the three main views, Sanatana dharma, Buddha Dharma and Jain Dharma share a similar cosmology which is derived from the philosophical section of ancient Indian society.

as such, the term to bear in mind is either Kalpa, in the context of Buddhism of Yuga, in the context of Hindu/Jain. the terms themselves, Kalpa and Yuga refer to a period of time that is 4,300,000 years long and then we have MahaKalpas and Mahayugas, the prefix "maha" meaning 'great' and there are 4 Mahayugas in this cyclic period.

there is a certain value in posting Sutta/Sutra references during the conversation, i suppose, however, it is my experience that these things often lead to more confusion rather than clarifying the issue.

the referenced Sanatana Dharma links contain some excerpts from their Gitas that may be what you are looking for. if you really have a serious interest in the Buddhist Sutta references i can probably post something for you. the difficult bit is that they mostly aren't in English yet and my Pali isn't as strong as my Sanskrit... all of which means that i'd need some time to gather the material and then translate it for you.

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Thanks Vaj.
Is there any online search engine for the scriptures? Can I read any scriptures online?

[Ansar Al-Haq]

What I don't understand is where the number 4 320 000 comes from. :confused:

[Vajradhara]

Thanks Vaj.
Is there any online search engine for the scriptures? Can I read any scriptures online?
you can read about 80% of the Buddhist Suttras here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html

most of the Abidharma is not translated yet, however.

[Vajradhara]

What I don't understand is where the number 4 320 000 comes from. :confused:
oh.. i see.

generally speaking, these things are tied to our understand of astronomy.

the earths axis spends 2,000 years in an astrological sign and thus needs 24,000 years to complete the cycle through all the astrological sings. this is called a small yuga or small kalpa.

besides this cycle, there is the Great Cycle which is an ellipitical orbit of our solar system around the Center of the Galaxy. this is typically related by a term called "seasons". Here are the various seasons and ages of the universe as measured in human years:

Winter (Kali Yuga):* 432,000 years


* The year 1998 is 5,090 years from the beginning of Kali Yuga of the long cycle. For the short cycle, winter is ending with the entrance of the planetary axis into Aquarius, which begins the season of Spring for the shorter, 24,000 year cycle.

Spring: (Treta Yuga) 1,296,000 years

Summer (Satya or Krita Yuga) 1,728,000 years

Autumn (Dwapara Yuga) 864,000 years

Total Time for One Cycle or Manvantara: 4,320,000,000 years

This is called "A Day of Brahma" and is followed by a night of equal length.

One complete day and night of Brahma: 8,640,000,000 years

(which is what we are interested in)

360 of these days is called "One Year of Brahma": 3,110,400,000,000 years

100 of these years constitute the life of Brahma called a Maha Kalpa: 311,040,000,000,000 years


it gets a bit more... complex from here... to wit:

The least count used in Surya Siddhanta for general computations is one Kala or minute of the arc of which there are 21,600 in the whole circle. If one has to specify the movememnt of planetary element to the accuracy of one Kala in a year a period of 21,600 years will have to be taken. This is the period of a Mahayuga and its tenth part which is 2,160 years is the period of Kaliyuga. Dwaparyuga is twice this or 4,320 years, Tretayuga is thrice
this or 6,480 years and Krutayuga is four times this or 8,640 years, all four totaling up to 21,600 years.

The accuracy of one Kala in a year is not adequate. To therefore obtain an accuracy of one two-hundredth of a Kala in a year, a period that is two hundred times 21,600 or 4,320,000 years is necessary. The first number of 21,600 years is the real time and the other number of 4,320,000 years taken for Mahayuga is the frame time or the non-real time.

The Surya Siddhanta records in i. 10:

"Lokanam antarkt kalah kalonyah kalanatmakah
Sa dvidha sthulasuksmatvan murtas ca amurta uccyate".

Rendered in English it means:

"The time which destroys is the real time the other kind of time is for the purpose of computations. They are of two kinds, the gross one is used for real time use and the firm one for the purpose of computations."

For the movement of the apogee of the sun this frame time of 4,320,000 years is not adequate and a number ten times this is required which is 43,200,000 years called Kalpa. This is given in the Surya Siddhanta i.20, thus,

"ittham yuga sehesrena bhutasanharakarkah
kaIpo brahmam ahah proktam sarvari tasya tavati"

"Such thousand yugas, of the all destroying kind, are called a day
or Kalpa of Brahma the night being of equal duration."

The Surya Siddhanta gives the rates of motions of apogees and nodes starting from i.41. It starts with the apogee of the sun which rate is given by:

"Braggate surya mandasya kalpe saptastavahnayah"

"The apogee (mandocca) of sun goes eastwards 387 (bhagana) in a Kalpa."

The computation of the modern value is as follows:

Mean motion of the sun (tropical) 36000.76892 degrees per 100 years

Motion of precession -1.39571 degrees per 100 years

Mean sidereal motion of the sun 35999.37321 degrees per 100 years

Motion of anomaly 35999.04975 degrees per 100 years

Motion of apogee .32346 degrees per 100 years

which is X 1200 = 388.152 bhagana in a Kalpa

This is the fineness with which the motion of the apogee of the sun has been given in the Surya Siddhanta.

if you have a serious interest in Indian mathmatics and astronomy, let me know and i'll post some relevant links. in the mean time, this link may be of some interest:

http://www.hindunet.org/mathematics/index.htm

http://www.hindunet.org/indianscience/index.htm

http://www.hindunet.org/astronomy/index.htm

[Ansar Al-Haq]

Wow. thanks Vaj!

The link for scriptures is very comprehensive it seems. I hope they may be able to add a search feature as time progresses. it makes it easier to read up on specific topics.

Concerning the astronomy, it seems then to me that this was astronomy research and calculations built upon religious teachings and numerical information given. Very interesting stuff.

Is this common ground for the three dharmas you mentioned?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Ansar,

thank you for the post.


Wow. thanks Vaj!

my pleasure. if you'd like, i'll see if i can find a site that has a lot of the Mahayana Sutras as well.



The link for scriptures is very comprehensive it seems. I hope they may be able to add a search feature as time progresses. it makes it easier to read up on specific topics.
they do have one, but you have to go to the home page instead of directly to the canon.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/cgi/search/search.pl?Terms=Dharma



Concerning the astronomy, it seems then to me that this was astronomy research and calculations built upon religious teachings and numerical information given. Very interesting stuff.
absolutely. this is one of the reasons why, for the Buddha Dharma at least, we say that if modern science were to present evidence that refuted one of our teachings, we should modify our teaching to be consonate with our observations.



Is this common ground for the three dharmas you mentioned?
well... to a certain extent... yes. this is, more or less, the "common" view that people from the Sub-contienent held. naturally, one may have a religious belief that explains something differently, so it we can't really say that "everyone" viewed it in this manner. nevertheless, for the purposes of our conversation, i think that we can safely say that this is the common view betwixt all three Dharmas.